The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

[Revi]

Very funny, Vtsnowedin.

Vermont is still quite beautiful. We took our solar car over to the Solarfest, and I had forgotten how lush the forests are, and the way the roads wind through the mountains.

Nice place to be when it gets nasty.

[oldchuck]

For the very reasons Mos mentions I tend to avoid Vermont promotion except to encourage tourists. There ain't all that much good farmland (Indiana is much better), even poor land is expensive, taxes are high, jobs scarce, winters long and cold, etc.

However, what Mos points out is an old story here. For two or three generations now city people, flatlanders have been moving in and getting comfortable. This causes resentment among some old timer natives to this day but others would say there has been something of a meeting of the minds. The hippies have grown up and gotten more responsible. My experience with this dynamic over most of my life suggests to me that cooperative accommodations among such diverse populations is possible. Yes, I know somebody is going to say, "So how do you deal millions of starving people with guns showing up on your doorstep." Guess we'll just have to set up toll booths at the border and charge a hefty admission fee.

I never heard of that population group. They do sound like the high end of the granola group. I tend to be more on the woodchuck end of things. By contrast, we have the governor and some economists warning about too many young Vermonters leaving and never coming back. This will devastate the economy they say. That's another old story.

[AAA]

Vermont is a trap. Flee while you can!!!

The population is way out of control in it's area.

Vermont and it's surroundings hold 55,000,000+ people in an area roughly 130,000 sq miles.

New Mexico is 121,000 sq miles and has a population of 1.9 million people. 800,000 people live in the Top 5 largest cities/towns and that covers 378 sq miles. That means there is 120,977 sq miles for 1.1 million people.

New Mexico has 15 people per square mile.

Vermont & Surroundings has 423 people per square mile.

I think I will stick to the Southwest and make sure I acquire water rights.

[Ludi]

if I were fleeing Zombie Hordes I would definitely head west rather than east. Virtually no-one lives in the TransPecos. For good reason.

[AAA]

Here are Renewable Energy Maps comparing the two regions.







Obviously the NE has more rain and abundant fuel wood. But the Southwest has great solar and great wind opportunities.

[mos6507]

Vermont is a trap. Flee while you can!!!

The population is way out of control in it's area.

Vermont and it's surroundings hold 55,000,000+ people in an area roughly 130,000 sq miles.

Anywhere on earth "holds" 6.7 billion if you widen up the definition of "surroundings" enough.

Seriously, this is just getting into a population density pissing contest. Some of the towns in the NE Kingdom of Vermont have less than 500 people in them. Almost the entire western half of Maine is unpopulated other than loggers. Even Western MA has very few people in its towns.

[oldchuck]

Vermont is a trap. Flee while you can!!!

Yeah, Tripple A, you got it. Go west all ye fleeing people. Ain't nothin' here but trees and rocks and the occasional skunk.

No valuable resources at tall. No oil, no gold, no silver, no iron, no geothermal (pity that), too many NIMBYs for much wind development, solar sucks, terrible soil what little there is. For sure, go west. (first time I used one of those little things.)

P.S. Where'd you get those cool maps, trippleA?

[AAA]

P.S. Where'd you get those cool maps, trippleA?

EIA

[rattleshirt]

Hey, you don't want to come to Indiana...to many bible thumbers, we have had major floods the last few years, industrial ag has ruined huge sections of land...Chicago, Louisville, St. Louis, the entire state of Ohio are right there with their millions of potential zombies...y'all just move along now.

[patience]

Yeah! Unemployment numbers suck, tornadoes abound, and the girls are ugly, too!

[Nefarious]

O, I wish I was in Dixie!
Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand
To live and die in Dixie
Away, away,
Away down south in Dixie!

[oldchuck]

and the girls are ugly, too!

Too bad about that. Must be all the corn.

So where should we send fleeing folks? Nevada?

[vtsnowedin]

and the girls are ugly, too!

Too bad about that. Must be all the corn.

So where should we send fleeing folks? Nevada?

I'm sending anyone who asks to North Dakota. There is a beautiful girl behind every tree there.

[patience]

Do they have any trees in North Dakota?

I send people anywhere far away. But, seriously, the first requirement is the ability to earn a living, and that is hard anywhere now for a newcomer. I think most people are stuck wherever the are for the present. I'm convinced that it is too late to be retreating to the countryside, except in very special circumstances. Better figure on trying to "bloom where you are planted".

[PonyBoy78]

O, I wish I was in Dixie!
Hooray! Hooray!
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand
To live and die in Dixie
Away, away,
Away down south in Dixie!

While I wouldn't take my enthusiasm for the South that far, I will say that I'm pretty happy with my chosen location. For a place east of the Mississippi, its smallish population density, lack of accessibility to zombie hordes, supply of natural resources, farming potential, and climate are not too shabby. I only have to worry about hurricane damage 60 miles inland.

[Revi]

Do they have any trees in North Dakota?

I send people anywhere far away. But, seriously, the first requirement is the ability to earn a living, and that is hard anywhere now for a newcomer. I think most people are stuck wherever the are for the present. I'm convinced that it is too late to be retreating to the countryside, except in very special circumstances. Better figure on trying to "bloom where you are planted".

I agree, reluctantly. I think young people who have enough money to buy farmland outright might be able to make a living if they know how to manage land. It won't be a really good living, but it might be what they want to do with their lives.

[Ludi]

I think young people who have enough money to buy farmland outright might be able to make a living if they know how to manage land. It won't be a really good living, but it might be what they want to do with their lives.

Or they could work with older people who own land but don't have the energy or enthusiasm to farm it themselves.

[AAA]

I think young people who have enough money to buy farmland outright might be able to make a living if they know how to manage land. It won't be a really good living, but it might be what they want to do with their lives.

Or they could work with older people who own land but don't have the energy or enthusiasm to farm it themselves.

I am not sure if you are referring to an internship or apprenticeship but I am not a fan of those at all unless someone already has the money to purchase land and would rather learn how to work land from somebody that knows instead of just going out and buying the land doing years of trial & error trying to figure out country living.

My beef with farm internships is they are either low paying or don't pay at all. As we all know, land continues to get more expensive especially choice rural real estate. Someone working as a farm apprentice for 2-3 years losses out on 2-3 years of earning income to buy their own farm.

Also make sure the "older" people who own the land aren't too old or in bad health. If they pass, their family will inherit the land and unless they themselves live in a rural lifestyle then they will sell it to get the money. I have seen this done many, many times in the San Joaquin Valley.

[Ludi]

I am not sure if you are referring to an internship or apprenticeship but I am not a fan of those at all unless someone already has the money to purchase land and would rather learn how to work land from somebody that knows instead of just going out and buying the land doing years of trial & error trying to figure out country living..

I'm referring to something more like a tribal business in which the younger person teams up with the older people for mutual benefit. The older people provide the land and some facilities such as water, electricity, preferably a place to live, and the younger person manages the farm and keeps the bulk of any farm income. The older people benefit by having someone to maintain their land and help them keep their agricultural tax status (worth thousands of dollars a year), the younger person benefits from free land to learn on plus most (or even all) of the income from their efforts. A lease arrangement might work as far as legal stuff is concerned. Having all agreements in writing is vital. The older folks and the younger person should work together to develop a plan for the land that fits with the owners' long-term goals while allowing the younger person to make the maximum profit (within ecological constraints, of course ).

If the older people are childless they may choose to leave the land to the younger person. This should be stipulated in a will, of course.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about this scheme.

[AAA]

I got it. You mean sharecropping.