The Post Peak Habitat / Doomstead pt 2 (merged)

[patience]

AAA,

We may not be too far off topic. Lots of ways to make a living, and presently a lot of those are in the cities. Wherever we choose to live, requires means of sustaining ourselves. If that be a job in a city-based business, then we have mos6507's problem of how to find a job where it is less populous, hopefully before things go sour.

The key to the matter of where to live, IMHO, is divining what means exist for YOU (with the abilities and resources you can muster) to make a living that will still be viable in a post-PO world? If we each can answer that, where to go becomes obvious. If the answer comes out to be a city, then learning how to live there in a changed world becomes the issue.

I see several crucial factors that I have used to broadly rule out certain areas for myself.

1) Water
2) Climate
3) Food Production
4) Population Density
5) Transport (freight and personal)
6) Fuel Resources
7) Forests
Jobs

There are many other factors. How about a spreadsheet to summarize what we know about general areas of the US and other countries, in terms of sustainable living? This is a topic of ongoing interest here, I think.

[Ludi]

The corporate world is what keeps the US as the leader.

Good luck with that plan!

And you're welcome! Be my guest in a thread of mine anytime.

[oldchuck]

If I, a 26yr old white male with blond hair and blue eyes usually dressed in business casual, walked around those areas I might as well wear a neon target.

Okay, TrippleA, now I see where you're coming from and why you posted this topic. I recall my year in LA was rather fun. That was 1969 and traffic was a bitch even then.

Even Patience's excellent advice above is probably not going to be much use to you. For some reason you are probably trapped and trying to find a way out. So it's not really a place you are looking for but for a way out of the trap. No doubt you have real constraints but also you may have a psychological roadblock. When I was in high school feeling trapped I used to day dream of escaping to a south sea island paradise. Don't let this forum be your day dream of escaping to a south sea island. Just do it.

[AAA]

For some reason you are probably trapped and trying to find a way out. So it's not really a place you are looking for but for a way out of the trap. No doubt you have real constraints but also you may have a psychological roadblock. When I was in high school feeling trapped I used to day dream of escaping to a south sea island paradise. Don't let this forum be your day dream of escaping to a south sea island. Just do it.

You don't have to worry about me day dreaming. I am one of the "lucky" ones even if I am a young gun living in LA. I grew up in rural New Mexico and we enjoyed hunting, fishing, camping, & vegetable gardening as a family. I moved to LA because I can make enough money to retire early because my wife and I live frugally and invest carefully. My retirement goal is 2023 and we are a little over 60% there. Our plan is to live off the interest/dividends of our investments and never touch the principal.

Our family owns 300 acres of ranchland in the mountainous areas of southern NM that my great grandfather homesteaded in the late 1800s. It has good surface and sub-surface water and is extremely rural. Elevation is around 8000 feet. Many people live self-sufficient lifestyles because that is all they have and they never knew any different. The nearest grocery store is 45 miles unless you count the local gas station that has a couple of shelves worth of canned items. Unfortunately I didn't grow up on the ranch. I lived in a small town just east of it in the flat land.

However the ranch was totally self-sufficient less than 50 years ago and we plan on making it self-sufficient in about 15 years. Unless things get sticky in LA and then we will be moving earlier.

[Ludi]

we plan on making it self-sufficient in about 15 years..

Why such a long time-frame?

[Roy]

Have you guys seen that Strategic Relocation book?

I have. I read it years ago when I started considering getting the hell out of the swampy sweaty suburban Dodge I used to call home.

You are right that the author, Joel Skousen, includes his personal biases. I don't agree with his political opinions, but that doesn't invalidate his research, data, and analysis. He did make a very good point about state governments differing. He used their friendliness to home schooling as a relative measure of the personal freedoms in any given state. That's pretty astute. I would also add a state's firearm laws when comparing relative freedoms from state to state.

I think that book was a good tool to get me thinking in the direction of moving, where to look, and what to look for once I decided on an area.

I'm happy with my relocation choice so far. In fact I'd say my family's quality of life has gone way up since moving. We make less money (and with that there comes more stress) but our environment is so much more tranquil, scenic, and safe than our old location. And we can garden, keep livestock, put out a clothesline etc without fear of HOA nazis raining on our parade. And the climate here is much more live-able with minimal or no climate control.

Win-win.

[AAA]

we plan on making it self-sufficient in about 15 years..

Why such a long time-frame?

Nobody lives there full-time and we don't plan on moving there for another 13 years and I figure it will take a couple of years to get everything up and running.

Our cowhands have their own property just west of our place so they don't actually live on our place.

[mos6507]

There are many other factors. How about a spreadsheet to summarize what we know about general areas of the US and other countries, in terms of sustainable living? This is a topic of ongoing interest here, I think.

Like I keep saying, you not only have to rank them as they are today, but to guestimate how they will change in the future. Take Colorado for instance (home of Al Bartlett). Over the last few decades it has become the new hot place to live for celebrities and the like (Aspen, etc...) So the rural qualities of the state are disappearing. If you believe that people will become more migratory as doom approacheth, then areas that rank highest might actually be worse places to go as they will be #1 trendy bugout locations and hence get spoiled by too much immigration. You kind of want to play some psychological games and maybe find a niche somewhere that has enough negative points going for it that it is not at the top of the bugout list, but you think you can handle those negatives, and then hope that everybody else doesn't play the same game.

For instance, take Maine vs. Vermont. Vermont would be a hipper bugout location due to the granola demogaphics. Maine just isn't as hip and new-agey although there are some pockets here and there (Brunswick for instance). So it might be better to go to Maine. That way if everyone piles into Vermont you made the right bet. Vermont will be "ruined" and you'll have dodged a bullet. So the trendy destinations become "die off flypaper". The drawback there is you'll have a harder time getting along with the more conservative neighbors who are not with the program on the permaculture, et. al.

These are the things that I think about when I contemplate moving. There are a short list of trendy doomstead regions opening up and going straight over to them has its long-term pros and cons.

If you really think that only a handful of doomers are going to be migrating before TSHTF, then the above concernes are not a factor. But you have to measure the risks. Do you want to put a ton of time and money into a doomstead only to reach a point where you want to bug out AGAIN to somewhere else because the region has become too crowded? Most of us really have only one shot at nurturing a doomstead so you have to think longterm and look at the odds of multiple scenarios. In my case I'm thinking multi-generationally as I'd want to hand the keys to my daughter in the end.

[Ludi]

Nobody lives there full-time and we don't plan on moving there for another 13 years and I figure it will take a couple of years to get everything up and running.

Our cowhands have their own property just west of our place so they don't actually live on our place.

Ok, I remember you mentioned that before. Sorry about my braincloud. Sometimes hard to remember who said what about their plans.

From what you've said, the place is probably to some extent "bugout ready" though maybe doesn't have some of the amenities you might want.

I agree parts of the Southwest are likely to be a good location if you're concerned about "Zombie Hordes" because almost no one is prepared to try to live in the desert or mountains there. Obviously you need to know what you're doing!

[AAA]

Great points mos6507.

I have also been thinking in the same direction. The baby boomer generation is beginning to retire and many are moving out of the city and buying in more affordable areas. Many are moving to the "country" to escape city life all together. This causes problems of rising rural real estate prices and subdividing large acreage into small 5-10 acre lots.

In the late 90s we saw prices rise dramatically around our doomstead and it was because one of the local real estate companies began placing advertisements in several Southern California publications showcasing rural NM real estate.

I would suggest buying real estate that borders national forest or state/federal land on two sides. It helps prevent a lot of problems with bad neighbors or future neighbors.

[mos6507]

I agree parts of the Southwest are likely to be a good location if you're concerned about "Zombie Hordes" because almost no one is prepared to try to live in the desert or mountains there. Obviously you need to know what you're doing!

You're going to need a few of these:

[oldchuck]

If you believe that people will become more migratory as doom approacheth, then areas that rank highest might actually be worse places to go as they will be #1 trendy bugout locations and hence get spoiled by too much immigration.

Hmm... I'm wondering, Mos, just what are the "trendy bugout locations" you might be thinking of??

By the way, how do you think Vermont got those "granola demographics?" Certainly wasn't like that when I was a kid.

[gnm]

Mos, you're going to laugh but I actually have looked into moisture vapor concentrators as an emergency distilled water collection plan. Conclusion - Too much power for off grid and barely enough ambient moisture to even get anything. I mean, a lot of the time our RH is so freakin low that the dewpoint is well below freezing - For instance with a temp of 92 and a RH of 7% the dewpoint is 19! And thats at sea level pressure - Good luck at 7500 feet.. I'm settling for REALLY BIG cisterns and rainwater collection...

cracking in the sun and twisting in the wind...

-G

[Ludi]

You're going to need a few of these:

http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/

[rangerone314]

Maryland has a nearly ideal climate in terms of happy mediums, but the one thing I'm not as happy about is the population density.

Hence attempt to screen the property 360 around with bamboo, cypress, rose hedges, thorny vines and stinging nettle. Block both line of sight and freedom of movement.

Eventually iron gate by driveway covered completely with vines and vegetation, affixed to brick posts. End of driveway also to be covered by dirt and plants.

When TSHTF, I will try and organize patrols of neighborhood.

[AAA]

You're going to need a few of these:

There are plenty of places in the Southwest that have amazing water sources. You just need to know where to look, have some patience, and do a little title searching because most places aren't put up for sale but many are willing to sell in tough times.

Last year we picked up 140 acres that bordered our 160. It was owned by a brother and sister that were the great grandchildren of the original homesteader similiar to my family. The difference is they had no plans to do anything with the property but kept it because it was passed down through the family. We noticed they had not run cattle in over 10 years, no longer held their forest grazing permits, and the trees were beginning to take over.

So we did a title search and located the owners, told them we owned the land next door, and made them an offer. Our offer was much lower than fair market value but they did not live in the area and did not know what real estate prices were at the time and it sounded like a lot of money to them. We did not use a real estate agent or company so they did not have to pay the commission and could pocket 100% of the money. So they sold us the property.

For more than 100 years the land had been in their family and never once had a for sale sign on it. But they sold it because they wanted money rather than the land.

[mos6507]

By the way, how do you think Vermont got those "granola demographics?" Certainly wasn't like that when I was a kid.

The hippies moved to places like Brattleboro.

[Revi]

Vermont is really nice. I think it's like moving to a part of town which hasn't been "gentrified". All those "granola democrats" were the minority in Vermont when I lived there.

Maine is a bit rougher.

There aren't many jobs here, either.

How will it fare? Who knows?

We have an active farmer's market, so that's a good sign.

Grist mill starting up. Movie theatre.

We might be okay.

[mos6507]

Seriously though, essays like this from well known peakers are why I see Vermont as having already been tagged a peaker sanctuary:

I will tell you why I chose Vermont as my destination; my understanding of the state based on my research suggests the following*: First, Vermont is sparsely populated with about 630,000 residents. It has abundant water and arable land with ample access to firewood which of course will be critical for woodstove and pellet stove heating as home heating oil, the predominant means of heating in the Northeast, becomes increasingly unaffordable. ...The state also has an abundance of small farms, a thriving organic dairy industry, and a strong emphasis on eating and buying local.....Also, an Amtrak line runs from Montreal to New York City, and trains can be boarded daily from Rutland to the Big Apple...Perhaps most enticing about Vermont is the remarkable environmental consciousness of the majority of its citizens and the sense of community and mutual support they demonstrate. In fact, I have never known a state, and I have lived in many, where cooperation is as valued as it is in Vermont. A great deal of focus is now being placed by Vermonters on renewable energy with widespread Peak Oil awareness and preparation.

If you feel motivated to relocate, be advised: the sooner the better. Time is running out.

And some Vermonters already look at the newcomers as the zombie horde. Sounds like a great group to be in, wanting to pull up the drawbridge, if I were already inside.

• Saddened by the ongoing loss of farm land and open space of Vermont?
• Dismayed that most of our environmental problems continue to get worse?
• Worried about the quality of life your children and grand children will have?
• Concerned that because of population growth the dependence on foreign oil will increase from 55% now to 78% by 2025?
• Convinced that we can not have infinite growth with finite resources?

[vtsnowedin]

By the way, how do you think Vermont got those "granola demographics?" Certainly wasn't like that when I was a kid.

The hippies moved to places like Brattleboro.

The trouble comes from the drones that flunk out of UVM (ten points if you know what UVM stands for) and can't go home because dad gave them this one last chance. They hang around and end up working for state government in some environmental or welfare office position. Once on the state teet they nevah leave.