Resource Wars: Water

[yesplease]

Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year,

Now, now! That looks like kind of a lot to me!

I suppose it just comes down to personal opinion than. I think we should, and will, reduce the 500 billion kWh of gasoline energy use each year, the energy used by the petroleum industry, and even the energy used at home, rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year. In other words, my definition of a lot is bigger, and arguably influenced by what's more frivolous use IMO.

[Ludi]

rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year.

yeah, but, they're taking that water from other folks.... and watering lawns with it.....

[gnm]

rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year.

yeah, but, they're taking that water from other folks.... and watering lawns with it.....

Indeed... The desert that is Owens valley, once a farming community. The bottom end of the Colorado river, the destruction of the wetlands which were once there, Now they have their eyes on Oregon farm's water... All to sustain the utterly unsustainable in Cali...

-G

[yesplease]

rather than subject the southern part of the state to a forced drought because the SWP consumes ~5 billion kWh/year.

yeah, but, they're taking that water from other folks.... and watering lawns with it.....

Um, that's true of more or less everything to some degree. Why is a problem in this case?

[Ludi]

Why is a problem in this case?

Because it is devastating other communities, for nothing (lawns).

[yesplease]

Lawns specifically only require a percent or so of water consumption since only 20% used by cities and industry according to the Sierra Club, with the other 80% being used by agriculture in CA. If anything, water consumption issues in CA are caused by growing crops, especially those that aren't low water/drought resistant, in arid grasslands/deserts. And even though agriculture and it's support industries make up a significant portion, ~5%, of CA's economy, if worse comes to worse it's what scales back because it's what uses the most water.

Iono, stuff like this confuses me. It's like complaining about cell phone chargers being left plugged in while we run the A/C or heat with a window open.

[Ludi]

It's like complaining about cell phone chargers being left plugged in while we run the A/C or heat with a window open.

Yeah, well, I don't do any of those things.

Not in favor of using someone else's water to grow crops in CA, either. Pardon me for forgetting to bitch about it.

[yesplease]

That's something else confusing me, if someone sells the rights to it, how is it still their water? According to that reasoning, nothing you own could be yours, even if you bought it, since it was originally the property of someone else. I don't mean to piss you off, I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

[gnm]

That's something else confusing me, if someone sells the rights to it, how is it still their water? According to that reasoning, nothing you own could be yours, even if you bought it, since it was originally the property of someone else. I don't mean to piss you off, I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

The large metropolises of the southwest have routinely used their substantial legal and political pull to seize water rights despite widespread protests in the area losing its water. Small farming communities invariably lose out. Why so keen to defend the unsustainable? Someone we know have a nice green lawn in LA? You _might_ be able to argue that its not much power (relative to the OBSCENE amounts being wasted on other things in CA), but you can't argue that its not much water... Owens valley has been literally sucked dry and the Colorado as well...

-G

[Ludi]

I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

Because we forget to write a massive comprehensive essay every time we post.

[Ludi]

The large metropolises of the southwest have routinely used their substantial legal and political pull to seize water rights despite widespread protests in the area losing its water. Small farming communities invariably lose out. Why so keen to defend the unsustainable? Someone we know have a nice green lawn in LA? You _might_ be able to argue that its not much power (relative to the OBSCENE amounts being wasted on other things in CA), but you can't argue that its not much water... Owens valley has been literally sucked dry and the Colorado as well...

-G

I'm sure you're forgetting some details, G. Better write a book and post it, pronto.

[Ludi]

BTW, Yesplease, have you read the books I've recommended?

[yesplease]

That's something else confusing me, if someone sells the rights to it, how is it still their water? According to that reasoning, nothing you own could be yours, even if you bought it, since it was originally the property of someone else. I don't mean to piss you off, I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

The large metropolises of the southwest have routinely used their substantial legal and political pull to seize water rights despite widespread protests in the area losing its water. Small farming communities invariably lose out. Why so keen to defend the unsustainable? Someone we know have a nice green lawn in LA? You _might_ be able to argue that its not much power (relative to the OBSCENE amounts being wasted on other things in CA), but you can't argue that its not much water... Owens valley has been literally sucked dry and the Colorado as well...

-G

I never said it wasn't much water. In terms of farming communities, we're comparing Owens valley agriculture to the LA county agriculture, so it's a small farming community loosing due to a larger farming community, not from lawns in LA. In fact, Mulholland originally misled the residents by claiming the water wouldn't be used for agriculture. Of course there have been many backhanding tactics used when buying up the water rights in Owens valley, but regardless, the farmers there still had a choice as to selling those rights. United they could have stood, and divided they fell. Same old same old. As for protesting being a legitimate form of remediation, I wish. If people really want something, in this case water rights, then they'll have to use influence and capital to purchase them.

[Ludi]

we're comparing Owens valley agriculture to the LA county agriculture, so it's a small farming community loosing due to a larger farming community,

Some of us like to stick up for the little guy.

[yesplease]

I just don't understand how people can ignore the large and focus on the small, as well as apply selective standards.

Because we forget to write a massive comprehensive essay every time we post.

We don't need an essay to apply consistent standards, or to spend a few minutes researching something before posting a comment, at least AFAIK.

BTW, Yesplease, have you read the books I've recommended?

Totally forgot, which ones were they?

we're comparing Owens valley agriculture to the LA county agriculture, so it's a small farming community loosing due to a larger farming community,

Some of us like to stick up for the little guy.

Seriously! Why should LA county use the water sold to 'em by Ownens valley residents more efficiently when Owens valley water can waste it so much better, to the point of not being able to raise crops in half the valley? Thanks to the big guy upstairs we Americans, a nation of little guys, have all this energy we can use wastefully. Imagine how horrible it would be to sell it to other people so they can use it more efficiently!

[Ludi]

We don't need an essay to apply consistent standards, or to spend a few minutes researching something before posting a comment...Totally forgot, which ones were they?

I'll let you research that for a couple minutes.


I've only been posting about this stuff for YEARS, and asking people to read some books.


But, if you don't actually care, that's ok.

[yesplease]

I bet I'll finish my research before you finish writing your essay prior to applying consistent standards or starting to research something!

As for your posting, 16,000+ posts is a bit much for me to go through, so I'll just respond to whatever new posts, as opposed to responding to your collected works here on PO dot com. Besides, it's clearly unreasonable of me to forget anything and ask you to clarify what books you were referring to!

[Ludi]

I bet I'll finish my research before you finish writing your essay prior to applying consistent standards or starting to research something!

I don't write essays. And I'm never consistent.


Please read:

"Permaculture: a designers manual" by Bill Mollison (I've mentioned that one for a good 4 years now, I think)

"Rainwater Harvesting for Drylands" by Brad Lancaster (mentioned this one bunch of times recently, possibly even in this thread!)

[yesplease]

Bookmarked. Thanks for the info!

[bodigami]

We don't need an essay to apply consistent standards, or to spend a few minutes researching something before posting a comment...Totally forgot, which ones were they?

I'll let you research that for a couple minutes.


I've only been posting about this stuff for YEARS, and asking people to read some books.


But, if you don't actually care, that's ok.

...you may add those books to your signature.