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Resource Wars: Water

Discussions related to the global politics of energy use and acquisition.

Re: Water Wars

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 01 May 2009, 14:40:41

As a follow up to this, the Great Lakes Compact was passed and went into effect last December:
The Great Lakes, which hold one-fifth of the world's fresh surface water, are now protected under an international agreement. The agreement was signed by President George Bush on Oct. 3, 2008 following its passage by eight state legislatures and a swift ride through the U.S. Congress. A companion agreement with two Canadian provinces takes effect Dec. 8. Conventional wisdom had put passage of the agreement at five to 10 years or more, if ever, but the compact is going into effect barely three years to the date after it was signed by Gov. Jim Doyle and his counterparts in the seven other Great Lakes states, Frank said.
Great Lakes Compact Goes Into Effect

Meanwhile, The Ogallala Aquifer(Also know as the High Plains Aquifer, the largest aquifer in North America), is drying up:
The Ogallala Aquifer, the vast underground reservoir that gives life to these fields, is disappearing. In some places, the groundwater is already gone. This is the breadbasket of America—the region that supplies at least one fifth of the total annual U.S. agricultural harvest. If the aquifer goes dry, more than $20 billion worth of food and fiber will vanish from the world’s markets. And scientists say it will take natural processes 6,000 years to refill the reservoir.

Today [Rodger Funk's] community in southern Kansas, 180 miles west of Wichita, is one of the High Plains areas hardest hit by the aquifer’s decline. Groundwater level has dropped 150 feet or more, forcing many farmers to abandon their wells. The cause is obvious, says Mark Rude, executive director of the Southwest Kansas Groundwater Management District: overuse. Yearly groundwater withdrawals quintupled between 1949 and 1974. In some places farmers were withdrawing four to six feet a year, while nature was putting back half an inch. In 1975 the overdraft equaled the flow of the Colorado River. Today the Ogallala Aquifer is being depleted at an annual volume equivalent to 18 Colorado Rivers. Although precipitation and river systems are recharging a few parts of the northern aquifer, in most places nature cannot keep up with human demands. Bio­fuels are the latest enticement to grow corn, which garners higher profits but requires more water than most other crops. Plans to double the number of ethanol production facilities in the High Plains region are driving farmers to increase corn production despite already scarce groundwater.
The Ogallala Aquifer: Saving a Vital U.S. Water Source

A senate bill was introduced to try and prevent T. Boone Pickens from pumping the Ogallala dry:
Seliger has filed SB1254 in the Texas Legislature this session, and the future of the High Plains may depend on whether he can get the bill passed. The bill would limit the use of imminent domain by water districts to no more than 75 miles. That would stop Mesa's plans to sell the aquifer to other areas of Texas.
Seliger's Bill Would Protect Ogallala
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 01 May 2009, 17:32:57

aussie company about to bring on line desalination ( and renewable electricity ) tec using wave power

www.ceto.com.au
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 01 May 2009, 17:46:19

hi cube
down here aus farmers do have some subsidy's
eg 30 cent / litre rebate(subsidy) on diesal

however water is freely tradable

irrigation water has increased in the last 5 years from about $30 / megalitre (1 megalitre is approx enough water to fill a 50 metre swimming pool) to approx $350 today

one result has been a major decline in rice production from approx 1 million tonnes to about 10000 tonnes

most of that rice was exported ie the planet has lost a heap of basic food
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 01 May 2009, 18:52:59

kiwichick wrote:most of that rice was exported ie the planet has lost a heap of basic food



There might be some things aussie farmers could raise that don't require as much irrigation as rice. And it would be best if folks could be encouraged to raise staples locally or at least regionally, so they aren't dependent on imported energy-intensive crops like rice.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 01 May 2009, 19:44:33

ludi
yeah maybe
my point was that the place is changing very rapidly to a desert

www.mdbc.gov.au

self explanatary graphs
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby kmann » Fri 01 May 2009, 20:05:04

There would be the small issue of: how are you going to move any amount of water that would make a difference some several hundred miles west and up some thousand feet?
Would this be economically feasable even if the rights could be obtained?
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 01 May 2009, 20:20:40

kiwichick wrote:my point was that the place is changing very rapidly to a desert



Most of australia was already a desert. Irrigating it doesn't change that.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby bodigami » Fri 01 May 2009, 20:45:01

kublikhan wrote:(...)
Are there any water issues in your area? Out here we are more at risk of flooding than drought.


...mostly polluted rivers.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby VMarcHart » Fri 01 May 2009, 20:51:46

Piece by piece, a 5,500-mile wall around the Great Lakes is going up. You can't see it, but construction is progressing nicely, along with an implied neon sign that flashes, "Hands off -- it's our water."
The true American spirit. Finally we don't need to point the finger at those poor bastards ruining their own lives in those God-forsaken third world countries.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 01 May 2009, 23:34:19

ludi
did you take the time to have a look at the web site?

notice the dramatic change in water inflows/
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 01 May 2009, 23:44:04

kmann

water flows downhill
if you then make the water downhill faster and let it flow through turbines you create hydropower
then use the power to pump the water back to the surface (possibly supplemented by solar)

the sheer scale of the problems we face will mean moving to a wartime-like organised economy if we want to survive
as some have already stated ,our problems today will make WW2 look like a sunday picnic
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby TheDude » Sat 02 May 2009, 04:44:08

kiwi - sounds quite interesting. This sounds like the right track to be on:

CETO contains no oils, lubricants or offshore electrical components - it is built from components with a known sub-sea life of over 30 years.


Hope they can deliver in meaningful volumes. I see they're still in the testing stage:

* 2007 - 2008CETO II
o Commercial design development commences
o Validation of computational models through in-sea trials
o Finalisation of CETO design development and testing
o Pre-commercial prototype array operating at Fremantle

* 2009 - 2011CETO III
o First commercial site selection and approvals
o Commencement of site works
o CETO manufacturing & deployment
o Commissioning and operation of commercial operation
o Production and sales of zero-emission power and desalinated water


Timely thread, I'm finishing up When the Rivers Run Dry:

The one-word review of Pearce's book is: Terrifying. Whether he's writing about the Indian peasant farmers who draw from poisoned wells every day, the oblivious Arizonans who run fountains in the desert, or the apocalyptic moonscape that is the Aral Sea (once a thriving fishery, now a toxic cesspool), Pearce manages to convey the immense wreckage human activity is making of our lifeblood. No, not oil. The other precious fluid.

I think a lot of people have a hard time imagining that human activity really can have such a profound effect, but this book should be an antidote to that. We've all probably met someone who refused to believe that anthropogenic CO2 could really be responsible for so many problems. This book manages to convey clearly and starkly the effects we've had on rivers and lakes all over the world.


What does the Great Lakes Compact mean for water conservation? : The Bay View Compass. Does Arizona qualify for any "exceptions"? Apparently not, only for states that have land within the regions, although the doc does have this: “We don’t have to face the difficult choices that places like Arizona, Colorado, and California have to face.” :(

On another note I see that the springs on the mountains to my north are shown on Google Maps when you use Terrain view. And we have 2 Hess Creeks. Haven't gotten an answer to that mystery - even from a water dept. employee.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 03 May 2009, 11:55:20

Peak water, peak oil, very similar--Peter Gleick



http://newsecuritybeat.blogspot.com/200 ... water.html
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby TheDude » Sun 03 May 2009, 17:04:16

For a bit more in-depth video there's A World Without Water, which is 1 hour 16 minutes.

Actually aquifers can be renewed, there are the qanats of the Middle East etc, long tunnels cut through hillsides to gather table water for wells, and the tankas or storage ponds of India and elsewhere, which harvested rainwater. Our word 'tank' derives from tanka. Many of these systems are hundreds or thousands of years old, located in very arid areas, and people who have cleaned them up are having great success with gathering water, in contrast to neighbors still dependent on the Western approaches of dams/reservoirs and deep wells powered by electric pumps; or relying on water shipped in, for that matter.

Water use in the west is even more profligate than with oil. All it would take is for some Hollywood nimrods to make sand gardens chic and voila! no more precious H20 wasted on natural Astroturf.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 03 May 2009, 17:26:44

Most of our water problems could be solved within a generation (25 years), or less.

http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby yesplease » Mon 04 May 2009, 02:27:30

Ludi wrote:
cube wrote:There's a massive aqueduct that runs for over 400 miles appropriately named, the California Aqueduct.


It takes a titanic amount of energy to pump the water over mountain passes on its way down to So Cal.

Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year, about 1.5 percent of the state-wide electricity production, and all it does it provide pumped energy storage and water for the arid southern parts of the state. Sheesh, the second we can't have the AC on and set at 55F 24/7 we'll cut off the power for the SWP and water for the southern part of the state so that zombie goodness will insue! ;)
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 May 2009, 08:19:29

yesplease wrote:Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year,



Now, now! That looks like kind of a lot to me! :)
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby jdmartin » Mon 04 May 2009, 09:29:31

Ludi wrote:Most of our water problems could be solved within a generation (25 years), or less.

http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/


I know this guy!
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby gnm » Mon 04 May 2009, 10:09:52

yesplease wrote:Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year, about 1.5 percent of the state-wide electricity production, and all it does it provide pumped energy storage and water for the arid southern parts of the state. Sheesh, the second we can't have the AC on and set at 55F 24/7 we'll cut off the power for the SWP and water for the southern part of the state so that zombie goodness will insue! ;)


According to this,

http://www.epa.gov/region09/waterinfrastructure/waterenergy.html
In California, the State Water Project (SWP) pumps water almost 2000 ft over the Tehachapi Mountains! The SWP is the largest single user of energy in California. It consumes an average of 5 billion kWh/yr, accounting for about 2 to 3 percent of all electricity consumed in California.


They are the largest single user of power in CA. I think by any definition thats a LOT of power....

Also cited there...
Water-related energy use in California also consumes approximately 20 percent of the state’s electricity, and 30 percent of the state’s non-power plant natural gas (i.e. natural gas not used to produce electricity).


I agree there is a lot of room to save water in the desert SW (no more golf courses you ignoramuses!)... So who's going to bend so that people can continue to afford drinking water?

-G
I Have and will continue to vote against ANY politician who supports the various bailouts. Curse you for selling out our future for status quo now!
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Re: Water Wars

Unread postby yesplease » Mon 04 May 2009, 17:00:09

gnm wrote:
yesplease wrote:Seriously! The SWP consumes about 4.5 billion kWh of electricity each year, about 1.5 percent of the state-wide electricity production, and all it does it provide pumped energy storage and water for the arid southern parts of the state. Sheesh, the second we can't have the AC on and set at 55F 24/7 we'll cut off the power for the SWP and water for the southern part of the state so that zombie goodness will insue! ;)


According to this,

http://www.epa.gov/region09/waterinfrastructure/waterenergy.html
In California, the State Water Project (SWP) pumps water almost 2000 ft over the Tehachapi Mountains! The SWP is the largest single user of energy in California. It consumes an average of 5 billion kWh/yr, accounting for about 2 to 3 percent of all electricity consumed in California.


They are the largest single user of power in CA. I think by any definition thats a LOT of power....
Not really, obviously IMO, considering that gasoline usage amounts to ~500 billion kWh/year. Even the petroleum industry consumes twice as much electricity and ~120 billion kWh worth of natural gas, which could be another ~40-60 billion kWh of electricity. All things considered, I'd say there are much larger low hanging fruit in terms of excessive energy consumption.
gnm wrote:I agree there is a lot of room to save water in the desert SW (no more golf courses you ignoramuses!)... So who's going to bend so that people can continue to afford drinking water?

-G
That's not solely a golf course, in other words use, issue, since most users along those lines get recycled water, but a problem in general with public acceptance, in America in general AFAIK. People simply won't use recycled water, so agriculture and others get it at a discount price. If people stopped being paranoid pissers, this wouldn't be an issue, not that we would eliminate golf courses and other frivolous uses, but at least we could reduce 'em and bring water use in golf courses and the like as an either/or situation instead of large users getting water that's "unfit" for human consumption.
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