THE Bailout Thread pt 3 (merged)

[CarlosFerreira]

@ Vaseline

Thanks for that. I had heard about that car, even posted something on my old blog about it. But it's not forthcoming; VW has substituted that Golf generation, that was a prototype. Incidentally, the diesel engine in it is the same as in my old Polo TDI I had back in Portugal. Great little thing, would clock 60mpg at motorway speeds, even with large tyres.

My concern is that we might be seeing the kind of supply destruction that's happening in the oil industry: money's more expensive, fuel's cheaper, people are scared, fewer are buying cars. Why would a carmaker bother building and selling that thing? The sunk cost of R&D these days is horrendous, and a lot of companies are scaling back - GM is a case to point.

The advantage for manufacturers selling cars in Europe is that the commission is implementing a brand-wide CO2 from 2012 (I think) that, if your range emits more than 140 g of CO2/100km, you have to pay. That forces the research and development on. That's positive, as long as policymakers don't pander to industry's whining.

I am looney car aficcionado, but I generally agree with cube. The future will probably be less car intensive. My point here is that, in a world where energy is progressively more scarce (read, more expensive), we will have to look at the most energy-efficient means of transportation. I recommend Figure 1.2, in page 8.

[mos6507]

Then the transition to another will happen. Small baby steps.

Baby steps would have been find 10-20 years ago. It won't work fast enough once we fall off the oil plataeu.

BTW, Tesla concluded that if we were able to harness the Earth's magnetic resonance, we would have "free energy". There are so many things Tesla dreamed of and imagined...I wish he was alive today.

No he didn't. He wanted to use the ionosphere as a transport mechanism for electricity, but it would still have to be generated via some conventional means, just as HAARP does it today up in Alaska using natural gas. His favored electric generation method was clean hydro power, but even in his time I think he realized there weren't enough hydro resources to power the globe, even with long-distance A/C lines or his wireless idea. Tesla had a VERY CLEAR understanding of where energy comes from. He "got" EROEI. He "got" depletion theory. He "got" limits to growth. He knew humanity was going to hit a brick wall the way so few do even toay. I too wish he were around today. Considering how far he went 100 years ago I'm sure he would have accomplished miracles with modern science.

The Problem of Increasing Human Energy

This essay is so prescient on so many levels I can't even limit myself to quoting the highlights. Every doomer should read it.

Here is a good quote where he talks about solar thermal towers and that he hopes to one day invent photo-voltaic panels.:

"It is probable that we shall soon have a self-acting heat-engine capable of deriving moderate amounts of energy from the ambient medium. There is also a possibility—though a small one—that we may obtain electrical energy direct from the sun. This might be the case if the Maxwellian theory is true, according to which electrical vibrations of all rates should emanate from the sun. I am still investigating this subject."

He totally saw where things were headed except for wireless power transmission which is too inefficient and potentially dangerous to deploy as he envisioned it.

[heroineworshipper]

Taxpayer funded SUV factories work. Take a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPThF-LQXH0

[fireplaceguy]

Now THAT sums it up! Nice find, Alex!

[dohboi]

RE wrote:

"Which side will you stand on Dohboi?"

Hmmm. I would hope that would be clear from the general tenor of my posts. But I would like your insights into particular movements you think will be/are being most effective. In my experience, by the time a movement becomes any kind of threat or shows any promise of effective resistance, it quickly gets infiltrated, co-opted...

So I haven't been much of joiner.

[Plantagenet]

Now THAT sums it up! Nice find, Alex!

Farking Hilarious......

It'll be the same story all over again when the 17 billion runs out in March and Obama gives an even bigger bailout for the UAW and the Big 3 except Obama will completely cave in to the UAW.

[AlexdeLarge]

Dateline: North Pole



Flanked by officials from the United Elf Toytinkerers union, SantaCorp CEO Kris Kringle today told the House Ways and Means Committee that without immediate government financial help, his firm would be forced to declare bankruptcy, lay off thousands of elves and reindeer, and potentially cancel its annual worldwide Christmas Eve toy delivery."

SantaCorp Pleads Case For Bailout


Its those damn elf unions!

[cube]

...
I am looney car aficcionado, but I generally agree with cube. The future will probably be less car intensive.
...

1) I live 4min walking distance from a bus stop
2) It is available 24hr / day
3) During rush hour the bus runs every 10 minutes
4) I live in an apartment that charges $75 / month for parking
Yes I have a car ----> because I am evil!

[CarlosFerreira]

...
I am looney car aficcionado, but I generally agree with cube. The future will probably be less car intensive.
...

1) I live 4min walking distance from a bus stop
2) It is available 24hr / day
3) During rush hour the bus runs every 10 minutes
4) I live in an apartment that charges $75 / month for parking
Yes I have a car ----> because I am evil!

No worries - one of the things I'm most excited about going back home for holidays is taking a day off to go to the mountains. In my car.

[shortonsense]

Yes I have a car ----> because I am evil!

No worries - one of the things I'm most excited about going back home for holidays is taking a day off to go to the mountains. In my car.

Darn straight. I just filled up this evening for less than $10, I'm thinking about starting to randomly drive around town for fun again, gas has gotten so cheap.

[Keith_McClary]

"It's Kristallnacht Two!" An Ethnic Cleansing in America By ALEXANDER COCKBURN - Counterpunch

Dean Rotbart points out in The Jewish Journal:
"At the very least, large numbers of individuals and institutions who today consider themselves to be victims of the Madoff scandal should brace for forthcoming legal actions that will allege their remaining wealth is not theirs at all – rather, it is the recoverable property of other claimants who were bilked by Madoff."

On the larger canvas, what exactly separates Madoff’s operation from those of the banks rewarded for their shady follies by a $700 billion bailout? Just like Madoff, the banks finally had to admit that all their public financial statements were false, that the supposed assets were worthless.

[ReverseEngineer]

RE wrote:

"Which side will you stand on Dohboi?"

Hmmm. I would hope that would be clear from the general tenor of my posts. But I would like your insights into particular movements you think will be/are being most effective. In my experience, by the time a movement becomes any kind of threat or shows any promise of effective resistance, it quickly gets infiltrated, co-opted....

On the National and International level at the moment, I would say no popular movement of people is very effective. I don't think joining any particular political party at the moment would be a great way to make the good fight.

My opinion would be that most people will have to make the choice when the shtistorm comes directly to a Theatre Near You. When the draft comes to take you or your sons and daughters to fight on the Mexican Front, will they go or will they try to excape conscription? When the cops come to close down a Tent City of your friends and neighbors who have been foreclosed on will you support the Tent City even though it makes your wonderful old neighborhod look like a shanty town? When there are a few people with Doomsteads and Farms who won't share with their friends and neighbors, will you fight to protect their private property or will you fight with those who never had the means to prep up like that?

That last one is probably the toughest one to defend among the Doomer population here. There is where you really come into some tough moral questions by the PO zeitgeist.

Reverse Engineer

[fireplaceguy]

Yep. GW just just punted and Barry proudly caught the ball. What amuses me is how many folks still don't understand that there's only one team on the field!

[ki11ercane]

When our political talking heads here in Canada announced that a bailout here would accompany the U.S. one, and that the unions would have to give concessions such as selected, non-holiday, paid absences, access to a legal defense fund, and wage cuts here as well to make the automotive business viable again as part of the overall package, the CAW replied:

"We will not be dictated to by our government."

Here's my answer:

"No problem, you will not be dictated to by our government. We will be more than happy to cut your bailout to 2 billion from 4 billion in trade for no changes to your wages or benefits. Done and done. "

Flucken arrogant unions!

[dohboi]

Nicely put. I'm not sure anyone really knows how they will act under extreme conditions until those conditions arrive. In my experience, it is often those who speak the bravest and act the boldest who are the first to run with tails between their legs. There are also many forms of resistance. Might be good to study up on which ones have been most effective in various scenarios.

Ultimately individuals, while they have important choices to make as you point out, don't have much power for effective resistance on their own. I think the thing to do is not necessarily "join" some new movement, but to work within whatever interlocking set of networks you are already involved in--friends, family, church (if so inclined), job (if still employed), coops (lots of those around here), and other non-gov and even some local gov organizations--to raise awareness and promote mutual support.

[InToWishin]

Madoff-Mania Brings Chaos to NYC’s East 64th Street

By Oshrat Carmiel

Dec. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Now it’s Bernard Madoff’s mailman who is suffering from what is being called the largest investment fraud in history.

“It’s only on this corner where I have a problem,” Perry Pecorino, the letter carrier for 133 East 64th Street, said yesterday. “You gotta fight through the people, going in and out of the building. Everybody’s in the way.” ...

... Released on $10 million bond this week, Madoff is now under around-the-clock house arrest. He’s at his Upper East Side Manhattan home, where he wears a monitoring bracelet and was subject to a 7 p.m. curfew until a judge barred him yesterday afternoon from leaving his apartment at all. That’s meant a constant stream of reporters and onlookers in and around the building. ...

[manu]

All of New York will be a big nuclear crater soon.
Going down down down in that burning ring of fire

Get out of the big cities, while you can. Even if you have to live in your car. It's all over. The parties over. The recovery is that the people that are left are growing their own food. Hang all of the cheaters, esp. those of the big corporations and the politicians that are in bed with them. That is the perfect bailout.

[InToWishin]

FBI diverts anti-terror agents to Bernard Madoff $50 billion swindle
December 22, 2008

Suzy Jagger in New York
From The Times

The FBI has been forced to transfer agents from its counter-terrorism divisions to work on Bernard Madoff’s alleged $50 billion fraud scheme as victims of the biggest scam in the world continue to emerge.

...snip...

[Keith_McClary]

FBI diverts anti-terror agents to Bernard Madoff $50 billion swindle
December 22, 2008

Suzy Jagger in New York
From The Times

The FBI has been forced to transfer agents from its counter-terrorism divisions to work on Bernard Madoff’s alleged $50 billion fraud scheme as victims of the biggest scam in the world continue to emerge.

...snip...

Then who will protect us from terrorists importing unlicensed Mickey Mouse T-shirts?

[ReverseEngineer]

Then who will protect us from terrorists importing unlicensed Mickey Mouse T-shirts?

A valid question, but it demonstrates an even deeper underlying problem.

The Goobermint has only a limited number of Criminal Justice and Financial Wizard agents to be tracking down all the people who have and are pulling some fabulously illegal stunts. Detail a bunch of FBI agents to investigate Bernie, they can't ALSO be wiretapping 2 cell dozen phones of a Newark based Muslim Paintball group. Detail a bunch of IRS Agents to go over the books of one Bank, they are a bit busy when the bank next door ALSO fails.

In a cascade failure situation like this, the number of cases that need to be researched and tried totally SWAMPS the investigative apparatus and criminal justice system. There simply is no way these folks are gonna be able to work this out in any less than a few YEARS, working at it full time. $50B worth of fraud over 30 years? COME ON!

By the time this gets figured out, the Dollar will be as far extinct as the Dinosaurs are. Meanwhile, we are paying a bunch of FBI Agents to scratch their butts and review the porn that some SEC Apparatchik supposedly downloaded. this is going to DO anything? Talk about a waste of time and money.

Reverse Engineer