THE "Telling Others About Peak Oil" Thread pt 2 (merged)

[Cashmere]

mefisto -

I used to do that.

Stopped doing it.

One day I was mouthing off about how ridiculously cheap gas was at 4 dollars a gallon, we should all be glad, and this station won't be here in 10 years, and I got a look from one patron that I recognized as -

"I want to punch your f----ing teeth down your throat."

So I put that to bed - no more mouthing off.

Life is tough enough without creating enemies out of strangers.

[VMarcHart]

I read a couple of postings regarding talking with co-workers. Be careful, fellow PO members. You don't want to lose your job right now.

I'm in the same situation. It should be easy to talk to my peers, right? No! I work with the "elite". Mostly white, mostly male, all highly-educated. How hard is it to talk facts and senses to them? Well, virtually impossible.

Don't lose your job now!

[Homesteader]

Its been mentioned before that the worse it gets the less people want to hear what we have to say. I'd have to agree with that to a large extent. When the zit of denial bursts I don't want to get splattered with the pus.

[patience]

Cashmere,
Shows what I know about chess..... Hopefully, I can remember more about how to cope with those who don't know anything about PO!

[allenwrench]

I mean, big change needs to happen to the way we live right now. We've probably already shot our chance to avert a catastrophe but that doesn't mean we can't start to make some of the hard choices and sacrifices that need to be made before the inevitable crunch.

What would be your suggestions to get the message out there?

In 2007 I wrote to 15 of the largest newspapers in the US and a half dozen news magazines about PO and not one publication was interested. I also wrote to 60 minutes, many TV broadcasters and Al Gore...no response.

I've talked about PO to other forums like kayakers, mountain bikers and backpackers most of just blow me away and make jokes about it. Other forums like the RV crowd say I am an alarmist. A political forum said it was propaganda and banned me. For the sake of our inner peace we must accept our job is to just plant the seeds...but we cannot force them to sprout.

It seems everyone wishes to hide their heads in the sand when it comes to this subject of peak oil. We can't depend on the President to come clean with the public. All his energies are spent just trying to keep the oil flowing. He can't admit that the oil will stop in the not so distant future, no matter what we do. It is a problem beyond his as well as all of our control.

As they say in 12 Step programs - admitting you have a problem is step 1. And our country cannot admit it, after all, admitting this problem would raise hell with our retirement funds. And until we can admit it, we cannot begin on our long road to a 'semblance' of recovery.

And in the big picture, we can't fix the problem, we can only postpone the inevitable. But buying a little more time would make things much more livable in the not so distant future than the current path we are headed in.

The world is in a death spiral and politicians as well as industry are pretending this problem does not exist. We can only blame ourselves, for it is just how we have built our world over the years....too many people, living outside of natures intended balance and not an infinite supply of energy to fuel all our demands.

It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But 7 billion people can't burn the trees!

Consumption is ingrained in us and we know no other way. And even if we wished to amend our ways, how could all our retirement funds take the hit? America is built on borrowed money, spending and consumerism.

Even if we did find out how to burn water for energy, petrochemicals make up a large portion of crude's importance to mankind. Roughly 9% of every barrel of crude goes to petrochemical use.

If we stopped burning crude this instant, we would still suck the wells dry, albeit not as quickly, just from petrochemical use. We will run out of natural gas, just as we deplete our crude supplies in the near future. After that uranium and coal will run out as well.

We are in deep, deep doodoo.

We must accept that we have built our world on unsustainable means - a means built artificially on fossil fuel.

And when we live out of balance with natures intended means there is a price to pay to come back in balance with nature. And the price usually extracts pain from us in the adjustment process.

It has been estimated that for the earth to sustainably support its population without fossil fuels a 90% dieoff must occur. I don't know if that is the right figure, but I do know humans could not live as they do unless it was funded by artificial means via fossil fuels.

http://dieoff.org/

So if this dieoff happens, of course there will be great amounts of pain in the world. But it is natures intended balancing act. It also reminds us that nature does not bow to humans - it is humans that always bow to nature.

Animals live within their intended balance with nature and it is only man that destroys his environment and has to pay the price through pain and suffering from working against nature.

[allenwrench]

I read a couple of postings regarding talking with co-workers. Be careful, fellow PO members. You don't want to lose your job right now.

I'm in the same situation. It should be easy to talk to my peers, right? No! I work with the "elite". Mostly white, mostly male, all highly-educated. How hard is it to talk facts and senses to them? Well, virtually impossible.

Don't lose your job now!

Wise advice

[allenwrench]

When I am at a gas station chatting with a stranger I usually enjoy the expression on their face when I tell them that our current fuel prices are cheap.

Yes, I saw something interesting on TV. They interviewed a fellow at a gas station about high gas prices. It was somewhat refreshing to hear something different than the usual fare of blaming it on the oil companies or speculators.

He asked the interviewer how is he going to pay for $7 a gal gas and how is he going to get to work? He was starting to see the effects of a post carbon world without even knowing about peak oil.

I think the smell of the SHTF is starting to enter the nostrils of the general public.

[allenwrench]

mefisto -

I used to do that.

Stopped doing it.

One day I was mouthing off about how ridiculously cheap gas was at 4 dollars a gallon, we should all be glad, and this station won't be here in 10 years, and I got a look from one patron that I recognized as -

"I want to punch your f----ing teeth down your throat."

So I put that to bed - no more mouthing off.

Life is tough enough without creating enemies out of strangers.

Well, we can be smart asses about it or not. We can offer the information is less caustic ways.

I just tell people there is no limit to gas prices as out crude supply is drying up. I tell them Google peak oil if they do not believe it. (and keep a bottle of pepper spray in your pocket for back up).

[allenwrench]

You don't. You let people around you find out on their own.

The denial at grassroots and political level will continue much longer that you expect.

Nothing they can do anyway. They can't pull crude out their ass. To 'try' and do anything substantive would cause a financial and population backlash of unimaginable proportions.

And what we could do, even with drastic measures, would not cure the problem, but only slow things down. WE CAN'T CHANGE....IT IS ALL WE KNOW!

Sustainability...lets be honest, we only pay it lip service.

We talk of living in a sustainable world, yet our actions betray our true feelings. All we have to do is to look at the stock market to see what happens when growth declines even a little.

Even if a company yields stable earning, but does not grow its earnings it is looked down upon. Stability and balance is part of a sustainable footprint, yet we shun such balance.

A good book that discusses concepts of sustainability is: 'Peak Everything' by Richard Heinberg

America is built on debt and spending.

70% of our 'economic heath,' better termed as 'economic sickness' is based on consumer spending. When the consumer can't compulsively spend any longer our economy collapses...we are not a healthy country.

With one breath we talk about cutting global warming and how we have to cut our dependence of fossil fuel.

Then with the next breath we demand no cut backs in our standard of living, we must spend and consume above all else...build more, build faster, build bigger.

We have the tiger by the tail, we CAN'T let go and all hell is going to break loose soon.

[allenwrench]

Do yourself a favor. Worry about you and yours and damn the rest. They have already damned themselves and they like it that way. No amount of PO preaching is going to change it for them.

...the wise man knows what he says...the fool says what he knows.

HEADER_RACK gave you good advice.

While I do spend a little time educating others, it is a tiny faction of the % of the effort I do with my own preps work.

We are in the 'Indian Summer'. Don't wait until the winter sets in to start work on your preparedness efforts.

You still have some valuable time left to prepare for what awaits you down the road.



Semper Paratus

[allenwrench]

In my experience people like to "learn" things on their own, not be "told" things by someone.

The best I've been able to do is wait for the other person to bring up gas prices etc. . have a conversation with them during which I mention I've learned a lot at this site called peakoil.com. Either they have the curiosity and motivation to follow up on their own or they don't.

If they don't then Darwin will figure out the rest.

At some point enough people will figure it out and want to do something productive about it. That is when I'm planning on putting energy into building community. Doing it sooner has been a waste of time, effort and quite possibly has done nothing more than make me and mine a target when it goes south.

I'm open to better methods however.

Well, we all had to learn on our own about PO. So I just plant seeds in toehrs and if the sprout OK and if not OK.

But I do not farm the seeds, I just scatter with little effort on my part. It is up to others to cultivate them.

[allenwrench]

This post should be a sticky entitled - - - "When you have the urge to try to inform a person about PO, read this first."

It's odd.

Very very few people seem to become PO aware based on being told and then exclaiming, "well I'll be!"

95% just ignore the information.

5% consider it.

1% or less follow up and become converts.

Even some converts don't take action.

In the end, Jack is right. People seem to resent the information. Like you're pissing on their birthday cake or something.

I think it is part of our nature to help others. Although some us may like the educating of others in terms of PO theory for its shock value.

Humans need moral guidance or a moral conscience since they have a 'free will' of sorts.

Actually it is like this.

We are free to do what we want -- but are not free to want what we want.

All our actions have consequences, and many of our actions produce consequences that end up destroying peace. (both ours and other's peace).

This is what separates us from the animals that run solely on instinct.

Humans run by instinct as well as moral guidance.

Most of us are grateful for our own PO enlightenment, so we are just trying to return the favor.

[allenwrench]

People believe what they want to believe. It's like talking to a brick wall sometimes. I have given up. All that matters now is me and mine. Screw the rest.

Well, when our efforts at helping others get rebuffed sometime our feelings get hurt.

Everyone is different. I just give some info and they can research it themselves if interested.

Sometimes it takes time for the seeds to sprout.

I argue with no one.

If I have the truth, I keep it and use it and share it. If you do not want it that is OK, I make no demands you adopt it.

If I am wrong and you have the truth I adopt it readily and now I have the truth as well. Wherever the truth is - that is where I go.

What is the truth?

The truth is that which does not change.

This is not so just because people have the cleverest argument to prove such things.

We cannot save others if we have 'not prepared' to save them.

For myself I can barley afford to prepare for the 3 of us. Nor do I gave unlimited space for preparedness supplies for others even if I had more money.

I am lucky that I have a 45' x 75' piece of ground to grow food on...but in realty that is not much land for the 3 of us, so how could it be stretched even further? (I am lucky in the sense that when in L.A. I had much less land.)

It is a hard fact of life that the Survivor must be Selfish in order to SURVIVE.

Just be authentic with what you do and you can be at peace with whatever the outcome is.

For one to be Successful at Survival understand the importance of all the 'S' words and how one's Success at Survival balances on the interaction of all the 'S' words and by practical application of a Successful Survival philosophy.

And while we do need a modicum of Smarts to be a Successful Survivor...well, let me paraphrase the title of an old post I wrote so it is apropos here:

'Academic Smarts are not the Same as Survival Smarts.'

The realities of being a Successful Survivor are this.

To be Successful at Survival requires one to be Selfish as opposed to Selfless.

It is impossible to be a Saint and Save everyone in the world that has not done their preparedness footwork to Supply their emergency needs.

Just Sharing Some of your emergency Supplies with one other person may put your life in jeopardy.

So now there are two deaths as opposed to one.

But only you can judge how many lives your Supplies can maintain and your desires to be philanthropic can Support.

Don't ever let another person tell you otherwise. The one's doing the browbeating are usually the one's that have done little in the area of preparedness.

But the concept of Sharing goes beyond just Sharing Supplies. It also encompasses Sharing our time and our energies - for Survival can be a full time job just to keep ourselves and our loved one's alive.

We are all human and have limitations, so we can only Spread ourselves so thin before we Start to develop cracks in our health - whether it be mental health or physical health.

The Successful Survivor must accept that the Self must come first. And while it is unfortunate that the foundation of that Success is based in Selfishness and not in philanthropy...that is what the reality of it is.

If we lived in a perfect dream world, then we could wipe out all these unfortunate and unforeseen circumstances that would cause one to have to prepare for possible disasters, upheavals and emergencies.

But the cold hard facts are that the business of Survival is not always nice and pretty - but it is always rooted in putting the preservation of one's own life first.

We develop Self confidence by mastering the Skills needed to overcome any Situation that arises to threaten our life.

Let me delve into the concept of Selfish versus Selfless actions a little more. I don't wish to promote the wrong view that being Selfish is the key to being happy and at peace.

As the Taoists tell us...fleas come with the dog. And if one desires to be a Survivalist, then one must accept some fleas to come with the job.

Most humans have a natural desire to help those in need. It is part of their makeup. But we must accept that we have built our world on unsustainable means - a means built artificially on fossil fuel.

And when we live out of balance with natures intended means there is a price to pay to come back in balance with nature. And the price usually extracts pain from us in the adjustment process.

This question of Sustainability is the key to helping one make the tough decision as to whether to help another out with their provisions or energies.

If whatever you offer is available to you in unlimited amounts or amounts that would be hard to deplete, then one may not have to be so concerned with Sharing such bounty. (Although Sharing anything with desperate people also has the potential for Security problems irrespective of the question of Sustainability.)

But whatever way you decide to proceed...be authentic and you can be at peace with your actions.

The 'authenticity acid test' would ask the question; 'Would you do the same thing again knowing the outcome of your actions?'

If you would not do it again, then your actions are not authentic, since you are not at peace with the outcome.

Authenticity is the key to being at peace. For even if you or your loved ones must die early to gratify one's philanthropic desires, then one can be at peace with that outcome if one authentically puts philanthropy above personal Survival.

This all goes back to my quote on Thoreau and the subject of pride...where do we put our pride?

Do we put our pride in helping others first and ourselves and our family Second?

Or do we put our pride in Self preservation?

...In the end you only have to please yourself with your actions...just be authentic with what you do and you can be at peace with whatever the outcome is.

[graham]

Two of my college lecturers and one freind suprisingly took it very well and got it. However, although most of people on my architecture course (including my lecturer) seem to get it, they think slapping a few solar panels an modernist glass and steel structures is the solution. How delusional can you get!

[VMarcHart]

I think it is part of our nature to help others. Although some of us may like the educating of others in terms of PO theory for its shock value.

True, we love to help others. I help others understanding PO as my selfish PO preparation. The more people close to me are prepared, the more resources I have. That's why I don't give up educating others.

[kublikhan]

i emailed my brother a copy of the Hirsch Report. it made him angry. a lot of people around here have had similar experiences.

Just curious, what aspects of the report made him angry? He thought it was lies? He was not happy we are not doing anything about the problem? Or was it just the realization that things are going to get ugly fairly soon?

[threadbear]

The message IS out there now. Anyone not questioning the role diminishing natural resources is and will play in their lives is not salvageable. They might be too stupid to live. Hate to say it. I generally like humanity as a species, but some of them, well they just ain't all right in the head.

[Pretorian]

i emailed my brother a copy of the Hirsch Report. it made him angry. a lot of people around here have had similar experiences.

Just curious, what aspects of the report made him angry? He thought it was lies? He was not happy we are not doing anything about the problem? Or was it just the realization that things are going to get ugly fairly soon?

well imagine you have a healthy friend in his 20s-30s. Normally his chance to die of cancer is 16%. You make some research, and discover that his mother and father are currently treating cancer, and that all 4 of his grandparents have died of cancer, and so did 8 of his great-grandpas. So you tell him that his chance of getting cancer and dying from it is about 100% , unless he' ll face some truck on a highway or blow his brains out earlier. What do you think his reaction will be? Did he ask you to do it?

[TheDude]

Telling suburbans they need to be ready to walk across town for groceries and grow food in their back yard? That's like trying to convince an Irish Catholic in 1840 that he needs to A) Stop screwing and B) Grow something in addition to potatoes on his 1/4 acre plot. Asking too much, in other words...

No need to sidetrack into the details of the Great Famine, I know how Ireland cruelly remained a grain exporter while 5 million starved. That parallel well may hold this time, too.

A top down approach may be a better idea. It seems obvious to me that having mitigation plans ready on a municipal scale is more effective than spending hours arguing with the ignorant about water cars and ANWR.

[cube]

...
well imagine you have a healthy friend in his 20s-30s. Normally his chance to die of cancer is 16%. You make some research, and discover that his mother and father are currently treating cancer, and that all 4 of his grandparents have died of cancer, and so did 8 of his great-grandpas. So you tell him that his chance of getting cancer and dying from it is about 100% , unless he' ll face some truck on a highway or blow his brains out earlier. What do you think his reaction will be? Did he ask you to do it?

Wouldn't a person with "maturity" rather know the hard truth rather then sweet lies.