THE Palm Oil Thread (merged)

[pstarr]

pstarr said:

dumb kids

The elders have been hoping for this for 10,000 years. I’m not sure it has anything to do with oil.

Cars make kids dumber. They use them for their escapes.

[fletch_961]

I'm glad to hear this news. Perhaps the remaining rainforests in Borneo will now stand a chance.

The higher prices for key ingredients like palm oil are especially painful:

I guess you missed the part about "higher feedstock" costs. The price of palm oil is up. More incentitive to plant more. More rainforest chopped down. This makes you glad?

[shortonoil]

fletch_961 said:

I guess you missed the part about "higher feedstock" costs. The price of palm oil is up. More incentitive to plant more. More rainforest chopped down. This makes you glad?

The point is that because bio-fuels are net energy losers, without cheap hydrocarbons to make them they will be, and are, going out of business. No matter how pricey palm oil gets, its production will go down with oil.

[fletch_961]

fletch_961 said:

I guess you missed the part about "higher feedstock" costs. The price of palm oil is up. More incentitive to plant more. More rainforest chopped down. This makes you glad?

The point is that because bio-fuels are net energy losers, without cheap hydrocarbons to make them they will be, and are, going out of business. No matter how pricey palm oil gets, its production will go down with oil.

Well, that is an interesting conclusion. I don't see any where in the press clipping that biofuels are struggling with a negative EROEI. Or that palm oil production is struggling (going out of business) due to lack of cheap hydrocarbons. Instead I read an article that says that there is idle capacity and demand for more palm oil, just not at the present price.

Biofuel makers are struggling (going out of business) due to the high price of palm oil. This can't be good for the rain forest. Does this make you glad also?

[shortonoil]

fletch_961 said:

Well, that is an interesting conclusion. I don't see any where in the press clipping that biofuels are struggling with a negative EROEI.

Actually it is rather doubtful that you will see anything of value at all in the Lame Stream Media. The media is about selling advertisers’ products and supplying entertainment to the proletariat.

[Gerben]

Actually it is rather doubtful that you will see anything of value at all in the Lame Stream Media. The media is about selling advertisers’ products and supplying entertainment to the proletariat.

I think it's more a question of anything you would value. Most biofuels have a positive EROEI. You might not like it, but that's not the point.

[thor]

That is great news. A brief glimps of common sence in a world gone mad. Hopefull this will alleviate some of the pressure on food prices. However thinking of the climate in Indonesia it may only be a matter of time before sugar-cane replaces palm oil.

Indeed. I sincerely hope this industry crashes down competely.

[Troyboy1208]

This thread will be perfect when Oilfinder2 comes in here and shows a graphic that indicates palm oil is rising in asia...

[pstarr]

Actually it is rather doubtful that you will see anything of value at all in the Lame Stream Media. The media is about selling advertisers’ products and supplying entertainment to the proletariat.

I think it's more a question of anything you would value. Most biofuels have a positive EROEI. You might not like it, but that's not the point.

It depends on what study you read. Studies pumped by interested parties always seem to find an extra energy credit to slip the biofuel industry. Those with no axe to grind tell the truth.

The media depends on adverti$ers. So does academia and government. Everyone in Ameri$a is in the bu$iness of drumming up bu$iness and po$itive eroei is good for bu$iness. Else why bother tyring.

[Gerben]

It depends on what study you read.

So could you get me links to studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels have a negative EROEI?

[pstarr]

It depends on what study you read.

So could you get me links to studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels have a negative EROEI?

Sure I could but you'd have to first amend the question. Something like '. . . links to good studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels . . . etc.'

[shortonoil]

pstarr said:

Sure I could but you'd have to first amend the question. Something like '. . . links to good studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels . . . etc.'

My favorite is the Iowa Corn Growers Association study that shows that ethanol has a positive ERoEI. When you read into it, you find out it is only positive if the mash from the distillation process is fed to Iowa pigs.

Soon, I suspect, there will be a campaign to get everyone to eat 2 lbs. of bacon a day; in the interest of national energy sovereignty.


"Figures don’t lie, but liars figure!" source unknown

[pstarr]

pstarr said:

Sure I could but you'd have to first amend the question. Something like '. . . links to good studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels . . . etc.'

My favorite is the Iowa Corn Growers Association study that shows that ethanol has a positive ERoEI. When you read into it, you find out it is only positive if the mash from the distillation process is fed to Iowa pigs.

Soon, I suspect, there will be a campaign to get everyone to eat 2 lbs. of bacon a day; in the interest of national energy sovereignty.


"Figures don’t lie, but liars figure!" source unknown

They reference the Shapouri study, which is government propaganda. I once computed the number of hamburgers that we would have to eat to absorb all that extra mash. It was something like 8 every day.

What the study ignores is the cost to process and distribute the mash. It is a sad joke.

[TheDude]

Soon, I suspect, there will be a campaign to get everyone to eat 2 lbs. of bacon a day; in the interest of national energy sovereignty.

"Chew the fat - for Victory!"

This thread will be perfect when Oilfinder2 comes in here and shows a graphic that indicates palm oil is rising in asia...

Like this one?

[shortonoil]

pstarr said:

I once computed the number of hamburgers that we would have to eat to absorb all that extra mash. It was something like 8 every day.

Someday when you have absolutely nothing else to do, and you are dying of boredom, you will have to post those calculations. You may have derived the absolute best and pentacle of PO humor!

[bodigami]

dorlomin said:

However thinking of the climate in Indonesia it may only be a matter of time before sugar-cane replaces palm oil.

Thinking about the paucity of nutrients in the soil of the tropical rain forests, without the application of hydrocarbon based fertilizers, their life span can be measured in a very few years.

Most bio-fuels are net energy losers, and unless there is a lot of petrochemicals to plow into them, they won’t last for long. It looks like the age of abundant, cheap hydrocarbons has run it course. Don’t worry about the tropical rain forest, they will outlast the age of oil, their greatest treat, by a few hundred million years.

I really enjoying the coming peak-oil termination of rampant consumption, rainforest depletion, ocean fisheries' decline, CO2 emissions, the sprawl lifestyle, '2nd' homes (most people don't 'vacation' in them, they only watch TV), endless mind-numbingly commutes, dumb kids, MacIntoshes and vegetarians.

And what is wrong with computers that last longer because they use high quality components and an OS that doesn't need a re-format every few months because it's crap? What is wrong with eating something that is more resource and energy efficient than meat?

I'm typing this on a Mac, on a day I didn't eat any kind of meat. I won't eat red meats and won't go back to Windows, both are crap.

Your 2 last list items shouldn't be there.

[pstarr]

dorlomin said:

However thinking of the climate in Indonesia it may only be a matter of time before sugar-cane replaces palm oil.

Thinking about the paucity of nutrients in the soil of the tropical rain forests, without the application of hydrocarbon based fertilizers, their life span can be measured in a very few years.

Most bio-fuels are net energy losers, and unless there is a lot of petrochemicals to plow into them, they won’t last for long. It looks like the age of abundant, cheap hydrocarbons has run it course. Don’t worry about the tropical rain forest, they will outlast the age of oil, their greatest treat, by a few hundred million years.

I really enjoying the coming peak-oil termination of rampant consumption, rainforest depletion, ocean fisheries' decline, CO2 emissions, the sprawl lifestyle, '2nd' homes (most people don't 'vacation' in them, they only watch TV), endless mind-numbingly commutes, dumb kids, MacIntoshes and vegetarians.

And what is wrong with computers that last longer because they use high quality components and an OS that doesn't need a re-format every few months because it's crap? What is wrong with eating something that is more resource and energy efficient than meat?

I'm typing this on a Mac, on a day I didn't eat any kind of meat. I won't eat red meats and won't go back to Windows, both are crap.

Your 2 last list items shouldn't be there.

I was hoping for a bite

As much as I appreciate excellence and elegance in manufacturing, I just can't seem to shake my impression that Macs are consumer goods.

As for vegetarianism I find it ironic that you would define you self by your consumption patterns. As for red meat it is a food we raise and produce ourselves, as opposed to fish which we mine mindlessly from the oceans much to their depletion.

[Ferretlover]

Please do whatever you can to avoid palm oil products.Especially unilever products, they use it in icecream and heaps of other products including lipstick.I spent my honeymoon in Borneo in March 2008 and was just plain shocked at what they are doing there.

There is no excuse from a humanitarian point of view because it is harming humans. Local tribes are being devistated. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV6zoz9_Nyk&feature=user

And more required reading on why this is undeniable - and the psychology of it: http://des.emory.edu/mfp/self-efficacy.html#sct

We went from Kota-Kinabalu to Semporna on a bus and it was ALL palm oil plantations. Even the Eco river tour we did was a fringe of forrest fronting plantations. Here is a map. The white bits are palm oil plantations or towns. http://impressions.com.my/sabah/sabahinfo/sabahmap.htm

Sepilok Orang sanctuary was a pathetic gesture at best. How can the world stop this? This is human toxicity at it's most profound. I've seen it with my own eyes.

[Crazy_Dad]

I'm sad that there is no discussion on this topic.
I know the amazon is emotive and more local to most readers of these forums.
The south east asia deforestation is in full swing - RIGHT NOW.
It's burning season people. Please discuss.

EDIT: spelling

[nocar]

well, all I can say is that I learned about the destructive oil palm plantations a few years ago. Although my understanding was that it was a favorite of the food industry because palm oil is a healthy kind of fat, not like coconut oil for example (here in Sweden I have noticed people often think coconut palm when they hear oil palm)

Well, my solution was to stick to pure ecological butter for our household fats. No margarine is ever bought anymore. Butter is the local traditional fat in Scandinavia. Our household eats very little processed foods. Except for hubby's daily dish of ice-cream. No telling what goes in there.

When it comes to food, I am not in favor of globalisation. Eat as local as possible.
nocar