Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world conflict

[btu2012]

On the other hand can you explain why Jews are so hated around the world?

There we go.

You can find some ideas here:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/

Btu

[Ta_Tyana]

<b>Russia 'freed' to recognize seperatist movements worldwide</b>
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0220/p06s ... tml?page=1

Russia's position in the current situation will, in all likelihood, be not to recognize the self-proclaimed state and emphasize every time possible that the legal status of the new entity is shaky. At the annual press conference Putin said Russia will strive to comply with the provisions of international law and maintain Serbia's territorial integrity without making any attempts to recognize the independence of any de facto regions that both border Russia and far from its boundaries.
In fact regardless of whether or not the mechanism for resolving the Kosovo issue can be considered to be a full-fledged legal case, the decisions taken will influence the suspended conflicts in Abkhasia, South Ossetia, the Dnepr region and Nagorny Karabakh. And, when it comes to the first three regions, Russia, in one way or another, "supports" the unrecognized republics, the possibility of a new twist in the Karabakh conflict could be very dangerous for Russia given the growing influence and strategic potential of Azerbaijan. Those who acknowledge the details of this conflict knows that Karabakh conflict is hardly less “bloodful” than Kosovo one. To say nothing about Chechen republic...

[wisconsin_cur]

Russia Threatens force over Kosovo

(CNN) -- Russia has not ruled out using force to resolve the dispute over Kosovo's declaration of independence from Serbia if NATO forces breach the terms of their U.N. mandate, Moscow's ambassador to NATO warned on Friday.

"If the EU works out a single position or if NATO steps beyond its mandate in Kosovo, these organizations will be in conflict with the U.N., and then I think we will also begin operating under the assumption that in order to be respected, one needs to use force," Dmitry Rogozin said, in comments carried by Russia's Interfax news agency.

Now isn't that interesting.

[ekaggata]

The most dangerous realistic outcome, to my mind, is a restart of hostilities in Ossetia.
It would suit Russia very well for there to be a protracted period of hostilities there which drags in Georgia. Just as it suited the US for Chechnya to turn into a protracted conflict (access to the Caspian), similarly disruption of, or at least threat to, the Baku-Supsa/Baku-Ceyhan (Black Sea) pipeline would suit the Kremlin.
Of course, one can overemphasize oil, even on this forum It's also about Russia wanting better control over neighbouring regions.

I am not criticising Russia in this by the way, far from it. Nor would I if this happened. It would just be another ratchet up in the global oil war.

[Cloud9]

Wasn't Spain Christian before the Moorish Invasion?

http://spainforvisitors.com/archive/fea ... vasion.htm

[EnergyUnlimited]

Wasn't Spain Christian before the Moorish Invasion?

http://spainforvisitors.com/archive/fea ... vasion.htm

[/quote]
I have red article above.
It sounds that it was rather liberation then invasion.

Local ruling tribes (Goths) was rather hated there by large majority of population.

Anyway, after several hundreds of years from takeover your rights to land are lost.

You could easily proceed to restoration of Egyptian Empire, if you wanted to give all nations land which belonged to them in the past.

It is a sad necessity to consider land claims of nations void if sufficient time from conquest have lapsed.

Then the only option left is military conquest and a long period of uncertainty counted in hundreds of years after eventual success.

[mos6507]

That is rather you who are an idiot.
Up to XIII century most of Spain was inhabited with Muslims

But Spain was not the ancestral homeland of the Kurds. It was a colony during a time of muslim empire.

[mos6507]

On the other hand can you explain why Jews are so hated around the world?

I'm sure some enlightened individual will post an amazon link to Mein Kampf.

[virgincrude]

Getting back on thread:

"To be sure, the status quo is unsustainable. But this status quo is one entirely of NATO's making. Eager to demonstrate that it had relevance even though the Cold War had long ended, NATO pulverized Yugoslavia with cluster bombs, depleted uranium and cruise missiles for 11 weeks, in the name of its newly proclaimed mission of humanitarian intervention. As the adoring media told and, in subsequent years, retold the story, the United States and its supposedly supine European allies were knights in shining armor, selflessly killing and destroying in order to rescue the oppressed Kosovo Albanians from the bloodthirsty Serbs. NATO forces marched into Kosovo, stood by passively as more than 250,000 Serbs fled or were driven out of the province and then cowered in the safety of their barracks in March 2004 as the Kosovo Albanians went on a bloody anti-Serb rampage.


Holbrooke, permanent secretary of state in waiting, notoriously negotiated an agreement with President Slobodan Milosevic in October 1998. In return for the United States agreeing to put off the bombing of Yugoslavia for a few months, Milosevic agreed to withdraw Serbian security forces from Kosovo and permitted the arrival of an OSCE mission-the so-called Kosovo Verification Mission. The agreement wasn't binding on the terrorist Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose members armed themselves and committed terrorist attacks, the purpose of which was to provoke the Serbian forces to retaliate and thereby to provide a pretext for the bombing the Clinton administration was itching to launch. Milosevic, well aware of the trap that was being laid for him, went out of his way to avoid being provoked. The Kosovo Verification Mission did not remain passive in all of this. Led by William Walker, U.S. ambassador to El Salvador during the 1980s, the KVM actively colluded with the KLA, going so far as to fake the Racak incident in January 1999 that served to trigger the NATO onslaught. It isn't surprising, therefore, that Holbrooke, who played such a crucial role in that earlier charade, should play an equally crucial role in today's Kosovo charade.

The Foundation for Humanitarian Law led by Nata_a Kandi_, much beloved and much bankrolled by Western governments and non-governmental organizations, runs a project seeking to establish the number of dead and missing in Kosovo. According to an article in the Croatian magazine, Globus, "The project has documented 9,702 people dead or missing during the war in Kosovo from 1998 to 2000. Of this number, as things stand now, 4,903 killed and missing are Albanians and 2,322 are Serbs, with the rest either belonging to other nationalities or their ethnic identity remaining uncertain." One should add also that these numbers say nothing about how people were killed, whether in combat or otherwise, and by whom. And there's no clarification as to how many were killed by NATO bombs. What these numbers do reveal is that it was the Serbs, not the Albanians, who suffered disproportionately in Kosovo.

The Absurdity of Independent Kosovo

[mos6507]

It is a sad necessity to consider land claims of nations void if sufficient time from conquest have lapsed.

In the end, land ownership, ethnicity, and nationality are all artificial constructs. It only matters when people AGREE to honor these ideas. That's why it makes no sense to sell land on the moon. Property rights there are not defensible. Borders and property rights mean nothing unless there is a working government to protect them.

[EnergyUnlimited]

That is rather you who are an idiot.
Up to XIII century most of Spain was inhabited with Muslims

But Spain was not the ancestral homeland of the Kurds. It was a colony during a time of muslim empire.

and:

It is a sad necessity to consider land claims of nations void if sufficient time from conquest have lapsed.

In the end, land ownership, ethnicity, and nationality are all artificial constructs. It only matters when people AGREE to honor these ideas. That's why it makes no sense to sell land on the moon. Property rights there are not defensible. Borders and property rights mean nothing unless there is a working government to protect them.

Could you reconcile both of these phrases?

[EnergyUnlimited]

Getting back on thread:

"To be sure, the status quo is unsustainable. But this status quo is one entirely of NATO's making. Eager to demonstrate that it had relevance even though the Cold War had long ended, NATO pulverized Yugoslavia with cluster bombs, depleted uranium and cruise missiles for 11 weeks...

It is important for US to set up a zone of unhappiness and of low level war in Europe and Serbs are chosen to be those unhappy, bullied ones.
This will facilitate establishing some kind of permanent emergency state in Europe.
There will be much posturing, blaming etc and meantime American and Russian imperial egos will grow.
At some point we will get some wars by proxy (say once Russians started arming Serb paramilitaries, Albanians started resurrections in Macedonia and Bosnian war reignited).

Should these prove not good enough, we will proceed to general war in Europe.

I think, it was really boring in Europe for sometime, so now there is a time for fireworks.
For example like these:

[btu2012]

This will facilitate establishing some kind of permanent emergency state in Europe.

Doubtful. The US doesn't have such a plan.

Btu

[btu2012]

I'm sure some enlightened individual will post an amazon link to Mein Kampf.

Funny how the claims in Nazi propaganda movies such as "Der Ewige Jude" are the same as those of some current conspiracy theories.

Nothing new under the sun.

Btu

For more than a decade Jews wielded their pernicious power here. Under the cloak of ingenious or even learned discussion they meant to turn mankind's healthier instincts down degenerate paths. The relativity-Jew Einstein, who concealed his hatred of Germany behind his obscure pseudo-science.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ew ... ills.shtml

[Cloud9]

Some liberation: "Tariq ordered that a group of prisoners be cut into pieces and their flesh boiled in cauldrons, then released the rest, telling them to spread the word about Moorish practices."

[EnergyUnlimited]

This will facilitate establishing some kind of permanent emergency state in Europe.

Doubtful. The US doesn't have such a plan.

Btu

Russians will force US to embrace it.
Arming Serbian paramilitaries and openly hostile policy towards EU will ensure it.

[Tyler_JC]

You're ignoring the key fact of foreign policy.

What does the United States have to gain by screwing around in the Balkans?

What does Russia have to gain by alienating the European Union?

[btu2012]

Russians will force US to embrace it. Arming Serbian paramilitaries and openly hostile policy towards EU will ensure it.

You seem to operate on the principle that anything bad for the EU must happen by default. Why do you hate the EU so much ?

Btu

[btu2012]

What does the United States have to gain by screwing around in the Balkans?

The US and EU want to include the Balkans into NATO and the European Union. Their methods might differ, but they agree on this policy -- which has strategic importance for both of them. There is a larger strategy of reducing and if possible eliminating Russian influence in the the Black Sea region. That's why you have the current movements in Ukraine, Georgia etc.

That area has great geostrategic importance, which is why the Russian Empire had an explicit expansionist policy in that region for the past 300 years. The EU and US want to undo this imperialist control. That makes sense for the security of Europe.

Incorporation of the Balkans, Ukraine, Georgia and possibly Belarus into the European system would markedly reduce Russia's ability to threaten and control Europe.

Russia is using its relationship with Serbia and Iran to block this plan.

Btu

[btu2012]

What does Russia have to gain by alienating the European Union?

Russia had an explicit policy of territorial expansion and imperialist control in Eastern Europe for the past 300 years. The Soviet Union continued this policy during the cold war (the "Eastern Block" was simply a buffer zone of Russian colonial dependencies). Imperialist plans going back to Peter the Great aim squarely at control and possibly territorial annexation of all of Europe (including Western Europe).

Since the EU's attempt to co-opt and democratize Russia has obviously failed, most analysts agree that Russia is likely to be the main danger for EU security in the medium term. Peak oil is likely to increase Russia's power in this regard.

Btu

Czarist Russia is often not even mentioned as one of the great imperialist powers of Europe. The difference is that British, French, and German imperialists founded overseas empires, while the Czars simply began annexing adjacent lands. Its wars in Europe with Sweden, the Ottoman Empire, and Poland gave the Czars relatively little - but densely populated - territory. The centuries-long war against bordering indigenous peoples gave the Czars few new subjects, but an enormous land area stretching all of the way to Alaska.

Russia's conquest of the primitive peoples of Siberia and Asia was in many ways similar to the Indian wars of the United States. Siberian tribes of Ostiaks, Samoeds, Nenets, Tungus, Mongols, Iakuts, Iukagirs, Chukchis, Koriats, and Kamchadals all fell under Russian domination. Russian rule was frequently brutal, and deadly. To take but one example, out of about 30,000 native Aleuts who lived in Alaska prior to Russian conquest, a scant 3,000 remained when Alaska was sold to the United States in 1867.

The Czar's earliest conquests passed almost unnoticed: the Ukrainians and so-called "White Russians" (not to be confused with the pro-czarist forces during the Russian Civil War), although under Russian domination for centuries, were distinct ethnicities who struggled fiercely to retain their culture and way of life. Further west, Poles, Balts, Finns, and numerous other peoples fell under Russian rule. Poland and Finland both enjoyed considerable autonomy, but even light-handed Russian administration seemed harsh to peoples unaccustomed to it. During the 1800's, other small nations were forced to submit: Georgians, Chechens, Armenians, and numerous others. Mongolia and northern areas of China were added to the Czars' impressive portfolio of conquests.

Russian imperialism was already a difficult burden for subject peoples to bear, but it became worse whenever the urge to "Russify" them caught the Czar's ear. Particularly under the rule of Alexander III, minorities within the Russian Empire found that their native language and religion were under official attack. Poles, Jews, Finns, Muslims and other groups found their religions persecuted, their schools forced to teach solely in Russian, their marriages denied legal recognition, and worse. Jews in particular suffered from official economic discrimination and semi- official violence known as pogroms.

Perhaps the most dangerous aspect of Great Russian nationalism was the ideology of Pan-Slavism. Russophile thinkers often argued that all of the Slavic peoples ought to live under the rule of the Czar, and become assimilated to Russian culture and religion. Pan-Slavism provided a recurring impetus for war with Turkey and Austria-Hungary, both of which contained large Slavic minorities. (It should give one pause to realize that in 1945, Stalin's conquests essentially completed the Pan-Slavists' programs).

The great irony of history is that Russian imperialism was often overlooked simply because Russians did not have to board ships to conquer Asia. Russian imperialism was on par with, and often far worse than, British or French imperialism. Even the collapse of the Soviet Union has left a substantial portion of the Russian Empire intact, for while many subject peoples won their independence, others - such as the Chechens - still live under Russian domination.

Source:

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economic ... m/czar.htm