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Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world conflict

Discussions related to the global politics of energy use and acquisition.

Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Wed 20 Feb 2008, 20:27:26

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Yep, they didn't think about Muslim mini-states emerging somewhere around Paris. :-D ...or about Turkish enclaves in Germany 8O

Now seriously, this move is a blow against one of core EU policies, eg integration of immigrants within host nation.
You should expect increased hostility towards immigrants in EU and in particular this concerns member states hosting larger minorities. This will give new lease of life to racism.


Here we agree. It's almost as dumb as a policy of nuking other states to prevent them from acquiring nukes. :)

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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Wed 20 Feb 2008, 20:37:20

mekrob wrote:Similar cases, no? Perhaps the precedent was set before Kosovo and likely before Israel as well.


I don't remember that European Jews ever declared independence on the territory of a European state.

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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby mekrob » Wed 20 Feb 2008, 20:59:15

I don't remember that European Jews ever declared independence on the territory of a European state.


So it has to be on a European state for them to have similarities? I'm saying they are similar in that foreign entities took over regions of a different ethnicity (as well as religion, largely) and then became independent states.

It wouldn't have to be in Europe to have an effect upon European politics. The declaration of independence in Kosovo is ringing around the world, even to Taiwan. Just goes to show that you don't have to be part of a continent to have effects upon that continent.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Thu 21 Feb 2008, 03:20:02

Poor Albanians. They suffered through millennia of pogroms and oppression, and through a massive genocide attempt aimed at exterminating their whole ethnicity.

Just like the Jews.

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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 21 Feb 2008, 04:18:53

btu2012 wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Yep, they didn't think about Muslim mini-states emerging somewhere around Paris. :-D ...or about Turkish enclaves in Germany 8O

Now seriously, this move is a blow against one of core EU policies, eg integration of immigrants within host nation.
You should expect increased hostility towards immigrants in EU and in particular this concerns member states hosting larger minorities. This will give new lease of life to racism.


Here we agree. It's almost as dumb as a policy of nuking other states to prevent them from acquiring nukes. :)

Btu

Dumb or not, but Americans are seriously considering actual testing of such policy in Iran right now.
There is some chance that we will see results within a year or two, so we will have more hard data to work with. :)
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby mekrob » Thu 21 Feb 2008, 08:33:51

Poor Albanians. They suffered through millennia of pogroms and oppression, and through a massive genocide attempt aimed at exterminating their whole ethnicity.

Just like the Jews.


That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. No matter what happened to the Jews, that doesn't make it right to apply different rules to what they did compared to what Albanians did.

I'm simply comparing what the Jews did and what Albanians did. I'm not saying they are right or they are wrong. I'm saying they are very similar in what they did and to an extent how they did it, although there are significant differences on that. What happened to Jews or didn't happen to Albanians does not change the fact that what they both did is quite similar. But you seem to be taking the Planted Agent method of discussing a topic by bringing up completely irrelevant aspects.

Now what exactly does the Holocaust against the Jews or not against the Albanians have to do with this topic?
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 21 Feb 2008, 08:42:33

btu2012 wrote:
mekrob wrote:Similar cases, no? Perhaps the precedent was set before Kosovo and likely before Israel as well.


I don't remember that European Jews ever declared independence on the territory of a European state.

Btu

They were clever here.
They knew that there is no chance of success in Europe, so they declared independence in Palestine.
That is about as good as if Kurds declared independence in Spain and seized Cordoba as their capitol.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Thu 21 Feb 2008, 10:05:14

mekrob wrote:That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. No matter what happened to the Jews, that doesn't make it right to apply different rules to what they did compared to what Albanians did.


I think that the situations of Jews and Albanians in Europe were quite different, so perhaps the motivations for their actions were also different. I am not aware that Albanians were discriminated against in Jugoslavia or Serbia.

Now what exactly does the Holocaust against the Jews or not against the Albanians have to do with this topic?


The Holocaust gave many Jews a rather good reason to emigrate to Israel, and the history of pogroms was a prime motivator for Zionism. It seems to me that the Albanians in Kosovo don't have a comparable history. Not to mention that Palestine used to be a Jewish kingdom a long time ago, while Albanians have no historic claim to Kosovo.

But perhaps all that is irrelevant.

In any case the formation of Israel (starting with Zionism and the Balfour declaration) is quite a different story from what is happening in Kosovo. The Serbs/Jugoslavs offered the Kosovo Albanians rather wide local autonomy already beginning with Tito's period, so they have weak complaints against Serbia. Their situation was never comparable with that of European Jewry.

Blacks in the US have a much stronger complaint than Kosovo Albanians, but I don't see them attempting to create an independent state out of Louisiana. By the way, how would the US react to such a move ?

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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 21 Feb 2008, 23:59:37

<b>Palestine to declare independence</b>

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a top aide to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said, "Kosovo is not better than us. We deserved independence even before Kosovo, and we ask for the backing of the United States and the European Union for our independence."

But another negotiator and senior official, Saeb Erekat, disagreed arguing that the Palestine Liberation Organisation had already declared independence in 1988.

"Now we need real independence, not a declaration. We need real independence by ending the occupation. We are not Kosovo. We are under Israeli occupation and for independence we need to acquire independence," Mr Erekat said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7254434.stm
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 00:03:45

gmin wrote:maybe that's the plan, every world recession ended with a world war.
and now recession's upon us again, war won't be too far away.


Did the neocons also plan the bombing of the US embassy? I guess you can find a rationalization to believe anything.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 00:11:23

<i>Did the neocons also plan the bombing of the US embassy? I guess you can find a rationalization to believe anything.</i>

What the heck did that have to do with what gmin said?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9548020370
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 00:29:47

EnergyUnlimited wrote:They were clever here.
They knew that there is no chance of success in Europe, so they declared independence in Palestine.
That is about as good as if Kurds declared independence in Spain and seized Cordoba as their capitol.


You are an idiot. The jews didn't just throw a dart at a globe to determine where they wanted to settle. They went back to their ancestral homeland, a place that already had a Jewish population. And when they started doing this, the greater middle east pressured the jews out of their lands in spite, only validating their need for a sanctuary.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 03:30:04

mos6507 wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:They were clever here.
They knew that there is no chance of success in Europe, so they declared independence in Palestine.
That is about as good as if Kurds declared independence in Spain and seized Cordoba as their capitol.


You are an idiot. The jews didn't just throw a dart at a globe to determine where they wanted to settle. They went back to their ancestral homeland, a place that already had a Jewish population. And when they started doing this, the greater middle east pressured the jews out of their lands in spite, only validating their need for a sanctuary.

That is rather you who are an idiot.
Up to XIII century most of Spain was inhabited with Muslims and some proportion of these were Kurds.
They were gradually pushed out by Crusaders and last large Muslim stronghold there was Cordoba, which have fallen to Christians in 1236.
Another stronghold (Granada) survived under Muslim rule up to 1491.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby Pretorian » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 05:10:44

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:They were clever here.
They knew that there is no chance of success in Europe, so they declared independence in Palestine.
That is about as good as if Kurds declared independence in Spain and seized Cordoba as their capitol.


You are an idiot. The jews didn't just throw a dart at a globe to determine where they wanted to settle. They went back to their ancestral homeland, a place that already had a Jewish population. And when they started doing this, the greater middle east pressured the jews out of their lands in spite, only validating their need for a sanctuary.

That is rather you who are an idiot.


Give him a break. You cant call him an idiot when he acts like one.
He's a Jew for crying out laud.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 06:44:27

mos6507 wrote:You are an idiot. The jews didn't just throw a dart at a globe to determine where they wanted to settle.


Let it be mos. Some Europeans only remember those parts of history that suit them at the moment. What else could you expect ?

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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 07:00:38

EnergyUnlimited wrote:They were clever here.
They knew that there is no chance of success in Europe, so they declared independence in Palestine.


Those evil Zionists. The Jews should have stayed put so that Europeans can kill them all.

Btu

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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 07:10:29

btu2012 wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:They were clever here.
They knew that there is no chance of success in Europe, so they declared independence in Palestine.


Those evil Zionists. The Jews should have stayed put so that Europeans can kill them all.

Btu

You are confusing Europeans with Germans.
And Kurds should stay where they are to allow Turks killing all of them.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 07:16:45

EnergyUnlimited wrote:You are confusing Europeans with Germans.


Oh yeah ?


Evidence of communal violence against Jews and Christians, who were seen as a Jewish sect, exists dating from the second century CE in Rome. These riots were generally precipitated by the Romans because Jews refused to accept Roman rule over Palestine and early Christians were seen as a Jewish sect that proselytized actively. It should be noted that Romans were generally quite tolerant of other religions.

Massive violent attacks against Jews date back at least to the Crusades such as the Pogrom of 1096 in France and Germany (the first to be officially recorded), as well as the massacres of Jews at London and York in 1189-1190.


The eleventh century saw Muslim pogroms against Jews in Spain; those occurred in Cordoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066. In the 1066 Granada massacre, a Muslim mob crucified the Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred about 4,000 Jews.


In 1348, because of the hysteria surrounding the Black Plague, Jews were massacred in Chillon, Basle, Stuttgart, Ulm, Speyer, Dresden, Strasbourg, and Mainz. A large number of the surviving Jews fled to Poland, which was very welcoming to Jews at the time.


The first pogrom is often considered to be the 1821 anti-Jewish riots in Odessa (modern Ukraine) after the death of the Greek Orthodox patriarch in Istanbul, in which 14 Jews were killed. Other sources, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, indicate that the first pogrom was the 1859 riots in Odessa. The term "pogrom" became commonly used in English after a large-scale wave of anti-Jewish riots swept through south-western Imperial Russia in 1881–1884.


Many pogroms accompanied the Revolution of 1917 and the ensuing Russian Civil War, an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire; the number of Jewish orphans exceeded 300,000. In his book 200 Years Together, Alexander Solzhenitsyn provides the following numbers from Nahum Gergel's 1951 study of the pogroms in the Ukraine: out of an estimated 887 mass pogroms, about 40% were perpetrated by the Ukrainian forces led by Symon Petliura, 25% by the Ukrainian Green Army and various Ukrainian nationalist gangs, 17% by the White Army, especially the forces of Anton Denikin, and 8.5% by the Red Army.


Pogroms spread throughout Central and Eastern Europe. Anti-Jewish riots also, broke out elsewhere in the world. During the Greek War of Independence, thousands of Jews were massacred by the Greeks to the point of extinction. In 1918 and throughout the Polish-Bolshevik War, there were sporadic pogroms in Poland. In 1927, there were pogroms in Oradea (Romania). In the Americas, there was a pogrom in Argentina in 1919, during the Tragic Week.

In the Arab world, there were a number of pogroms which played a key role in the massive emigration from Arab countries to Israel. These occurred during rising tensions and violence in Palestine as Jews tried to secure a homeland there. In 1945, anti-Jewish rioters in Tripoli, Libya killed 140 Jews. The Farhud pogrom in Iraq killed between 200 and 400 Jews.


A number of deadly pogroms occurred during the Holocaust at the hands of non-Germans, for example the Jedwabne pogrom of 1941, in which Polish citizens killed between 400 and 1,600 Jews (estimates vary), with little to no German assistance. The region was previously occupied by the Soviet Union, (Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact) and the Jewish population was accused of collaboration with the Soviets.

In the city of Lviv, Ukrainian nationalists allegedly organized two large pogroms in June-July, 1941 in which around 6,000 [1] Jews were murdered, in apparent retribution for the alleged collaboration of some Jews with the previous Soviet regime. ( See: Controversy regarding the Nachtigall Battalion).

In Lithuania, Lithuanian nationalists (led by Klimaitis) engaged in anti-Jewish pogroms for similar reasons as well, on the 25th and 26th of June, 1941 (after the Nazi German troops had entered the city), killing about 3,800 Jews [2] and burning synagogues and Jewish shops[citation needed]. Perhaps the deadliest of these Holocaust-era pogroms was the Iaşi pogrom in Romania, in which as many as 13,266 Jews were killed by Romanian citizens, police, and military officials.


Even after the end of World War II, there were still isolated pogroms, the first one in Poland being the Krakow pogrom on August 11, 1945. The most notable of the post World War II pogroms was the Polish Kielce pogrom of 1946, in which around 40 people lost their lives.


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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 07:30:07

I was referring to WW II.
After all before WW II Jews were happy to live in Europe, regardless of odd pogroms.
During WW II Germans made overall statistics.

NB. You forgot about Edward I of England and fate of Jewish bankers there.

On the other hand can you explain why Jews are so hated around the world?

The only explanation I can find is that they claim that God said that they are better than all others so other nations are trying to score points against God.
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Re: Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world confl

Unread postby btu2012 » Fri 22 Feb 2008, 07:40:51

EnergyUnlimited wrote:After all before WW II Jews were happy to live in Europe, regardless of odd pogroms.


Don't speak for others. :)

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