THE Wind Power Thread pt 1 (merged) Archived

[yesplease]

That sounds fair enough but what does humanity do when oil eventually runs out? How much would it cost to build a windmill if for example you couldn't use diesel fuel powered mining equipment to extract iron ore?

Oil will never "run out" in any strict sense. What's interesting is whether or not it will get expensive enough for heavy duty mining equipment to transition to electricity and/or lead acid battery packs. Do you have any studies, links, articles, etc about the impact of diesel fuel prices on ore mining costs, or estimations as to how high prices would have to be in order to make switching to electric operation viable?

[SteinarN]

When wind speeds reach too high of a level to be considered safe; the windmills put the brakes on the rotors to protect the turbines from damage. You cannot operate a windmill at 70mph. Shooting from the hip here I think most windmills would shut down at wind speeds of 25 mph or above.

Actually it is rather 25 metre/second. (90 km/h, 56 mph).

It depends on the spesification of the windturbine, how windy it is in the area the turbines is located. A "shutoff" windspeed of 20-25 m/s is common.

[SteinarN]

Generators want to run in a sweet spot for efficiency plus the speed has to be closely regulated so the load is consistent. The frequency is set by the utility grid at 60 hz.

This is fairly easy to manage with diesel and gas turbine generators as the engines respond quickly to throttle changes. Wind generators can't change the speed of the blades very quickly so it's most likely done with some sort of gearbox along with other things like pitch control of the blades. I could see this placing a heavy load on such components.

The generator in most turbines over a sertain size consist actually of two generators, one with 4 poles and the other with 6 poles. In that way you get two speed. The generatorspeed would be, for a 60 Hz system, 1800 rpm for the big 4 pole generator and 1200 rpm for the smaller 6 pole generator. When it is low wind the blades turn at a slow speed generating 60 Hz power with the 6 pole generator. When the wind reaches a sertain limit, it switch off, increase imediately 50% in speed, and "catches" the grid when the big 4 pole generator reaches 60 Hz. IMO there is only one gear in the gearbox.

[kublikhan]

Do you have any studies, links, articles, etc about the impact of diesel fuel prices on ore mining costs, or estimations as to how high prices would have to be in order to make switching to electric operation viable?

Electricity based machinery is already widely established in the mining industry. It has lower operating cost, but it has its own set of problems. The established DC-based machinery is less reliable and requires more maintenance. The industry is now starting to switch to lower maintenance and more reliable AC equipment. Also, new technology is available to improve the reliability of the older DC equipment as well.
http://www.crcmining.com.au/dynamic_pag ... age_id=144
http://www.phmining.com/equipment/shovels.html
http://www.westernmine.com/westernmine/eqcost.htm

Of course, if you are running diesel generators for your electricity(common in remote areas), then you are still going to be in trouble when the cost of diesel goes up.
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/min ... &sn=Detail

[cube]

Do you have any studies, links, articles, etc about the impact of diesel fuel prices on ore mining costs, or estimations as to how high prices would have to be in order to make switching to electric operation viable?

Electricity based machinery is already widely established in the mining industry. It has lower operating cost, but it has its own set of problems. The established DC-based machinery is less reliable and requires more maintenance. The industry is now starting to switch to lower maintenance and more reliable AC equipment. Also, new technology is available to improve the reliability of the older DC equipment as well.
http://www.crcmining.com.au/dynamic_pag ... age_id=144
http://www.phmining.com/equipment/shovels.html
http://www.westernmine.com/westernmine/eqcost.htm

Of course, if you are running diesel generators for your electricity(common in remote areas), then you are still going to be in trouble when the cost of diesel goes up.
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/min ... &sn=Detail

Lets not try to be coy here now.
It's not so much of diesel fuel going up it is not having any liquid fossil fuels at all that I am concerned about. Well actually I'll be dead by then but still. We're talking about if windmills can assist humanity in a post PO world.

All your examples are still running off fossil fuels.
Like I hinted before; windmills (of the size and scale needed to maintain a modern society) are only possible because of fossil fuels. Therefore windmills are not an alternative to fossil fuels.

[yesplease]

Of course, if you are running diesel generators for your electricity(common in remote areas), then you are still going to be in trouble when the cost of diesel goes up.
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/min ... &sn=Detail

It depends. A lot of diesels in areas where air quality standards aren't present or enforced are powered by all sorts of blended/filtered waste streams such as used motor oil and/or WVO and/or etc... Your local auto parts store isn't generously collecting your old motor oil just for "recycling", they sell it for profit. The prices of these fuel sources aren't strictly what we pay for No. 2 fuel oil.

All your examples are still running off fossil fuels.
Like I hinted before; windmills (of the size and scale needed to maintain a modern society) are only possible because of fossil fuels. Therefore windmills are not an alternative to fossil fuels.

And, fossil fuels were only possible because of biofuels. And, biofuels were only possible because of human work. Therefore fossil fuels are not an alternative to human work. But... Someone, we're getting along with them.

[kublikhan]

Lets not try to be coy here now.All your examples are still running off fossil fuels.

Huh? What are you talking about? They are run on electricity.

Heres a patent description for the drive system:
"A motor drive system for a mining shovel includes three a.c. motors which are driven by associated inverter circuits that receive power from a common d.c. bus. The d.c. bus connects to the a.c. power lines through a disconnect switch and a rectifier circuit and a chopper circuit is employed to dissipate power when the d.c. bus voltage rises due to motor regeneration. A power monitor and control circuit monitors the a.c. line voltage and the d.c. bus voltage and it controls the various system elements in such a manner as to maintain the d.c. bus voltage within an operating range. When the d.c. bus voltage cannot be maintained within the operating range, the disconnect switch is enabled to shut down the machine."
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4263535.html

Transportation vehicles can operate in a similar manner, either tethered with cables or run on batteries:
"Battery haulers perform a similar function to shuttle cars. Shuttle cars are powered through cables and battery haulers are powered by portable rechargeable batteries."
http://stocks.us.reuters.com/stocks/ful ... bol=JOYG.O

These are being fed by grid power, not diesel:
"Today’s large electric mining shovels represent peak loads of more than 3.5 MW to an often “weak” mine distribution system."
http://www.industry.siemens.com/broschu ... tml?id=683

This is not new technology. It has been around for quite some time.

[cube]

Lets not try to be coy here now.All your examples are still running off fossil fuels.

Huh? What are you talking about? They are run on electricity.

Yes I know that vehicles can be powered by electric motors; that was never the question, everybody knows that......it is the source of the electricity that I'm interested in.

*google search*
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4071124.html
Electrical power supply method and system for open pit mining equipment

A land vehicle such as an electric motor-operated power shovel working on the floor of an open pit mine is supplied with electrical power from a remote source by a flexible electric power cable. To prevent vehicles working within and moving along the floor and terraced sides of the mine pit from being obstructed by or traveling over and damaging the power cable, such cable is suspended between its ends from a lighter-than-air balloon tethered at an elevation above the shovel and terrain between the power source and the shovel. The balloon is tethered to a support cable anchored at one end near the power source and at the other end to the shovel. Connectors placed at intervals along the support cable interconnect the support cable and the power cable while enabling the power cable to slide in opposite directions along the support cable. The support cable is connected to the shovel in a manner enabling the shovel to rotate while working without twisting the cables.

Damn! Never heard of that before. Now that is interesting but there's still a slight problem. You can't have all your vehicles run on an electrical extension cord lifted by a balloon. *insert mental image*
So long as vehicles do not "cross paths" then you're okay. But some of the vehicles MUST have the flexibility to go around each other without fear of tangling up electrical cables. They would need to be battery operated. (remember we're envisioning a post PO world where diesel fuel does not exist). This system would probably work best for those special construction/mining sites where there is this one super large machine such as those coal excavators that need to move around but only slowly.
Bagger 288 for example

A vehicle such as a dump truck or any truck would need to be battery operated b/c it absolutely must have the mobility. It makes me squeamish to think how much $$$$ in lithium ion batteries that's going to cost. There's also the problem of transporting and installing a windmill in a post PO world. You can't drag a power cable behind you on a freeway! One thing is for certain there will be a lot less construction going on in a post PO world that's for sure.

Electric cable powered construction/mining vehicles seems interesting but the application is to limited / specialized to save humanity. It would only work in an open pit mine and on the plus side most iron ore is mined through open pits but I still see a die-off scenario.

[cube]

To: kublikhan
oops another problem I forgot to add. In a post PO world EVERY construction project must run off the electrical grid. How else can the cable electric vehicles be powered and also the batteries be recharged? Imagine every construction project you ever saw in your life and then think about the logistical problems of trying to run it off the grid!

Therefore you'd have to either:
1) literally string electrical cables between each construction site and the nearest grid point
or
2) bring multiple stacks of batteries for each vehicle and make back and forth trips between the nearest electrical grid recharge point and the construction site

I hope you now see why I'm so "skeptical" and my opinion and is not merely just lashing out at an idea I don't necessarily agree with.

[kublikhan]

To: kublikhan
oops another problem I forgot to add. In a post PO world EVERY construction project must run off the electrical grid. How else can the cable electric vehicles be powered and also the batteries be recharged? Imagine every construction project you ever saw in your life and then think about the logistical problems of trying to run it off the grid!

Therefore you'd have to either:
1) literally string electrical cables between each construction site and the nearest grid point
or
2) bring multiple stacks of batteries for each vehicle and make back and forth trips between the nearest electrical grid recharge point and the construction site

Trolley systems to power mining operations from the grid are common today. You do not have to wait until every last bit of oil is sucked out of the earth to see it. And lets not forget hydraulic systems either.
http://hutnyak.com/Trolley/trolleyhistory.html

I hope you now see why I'm so "skeptical" and my opinion and is not merely just lashing out at an idea I don't necessarily agree with.

In my opinion, you have picked a very minor issue to quibble over. You picked an industry that already has done major work with electrification, and the point when the last drop of oil is sucked out of the earth is irrelevant, we will be in trouble long before then.

I see a much bigger problem with trying to scale renewables to cover the amount of energy needed to replace fossil fuels. I am not convinced it can be done on the time scale required to mitigate the effects of peak oil/gas, even with conservation thrown into the mix.

[cube]

http://hutnyak.com/Trolley/trolleyhistory.html

Interesting concept but like I said before; stringing cable is limited to only specialized applications. An example you listed ---> 1956 - 1971: Riverside Cement Company...."These trucks operated for 15 years before being retired from service." DAMN. well if you're going to use something for 15 years then yeah I guess the additional cost of building overhead electric lines is justified. However MOST construction jobs are quick and dirty: building a shopping mall, homes, office buildings, etc... The cost to string cable up and tearing it down after only a couple months would be ridiculously expensive. And of course some construction jobs last only a couple days for example patching potholes on a freeway.

I hope you now see why I'm so "skeptical" and my opinion and is not merely just lashing out at an idea I don't necessarily agree with.

In my opinion, you have picked a very minor issue to quibble over.

Actually on 2nd thought........it seems the distribution of electricity is MUCH more difficult then it's production.

[kublikhan]

The cost to string cable up and tearing it down after only a couple months would be ridiculously expensive.... Actually on 2nd thought........it seems the distribution of electricity is MUCH more difficult then it's production.

You are still not getting it. The economics of the system are enough to invite it's use today, when oil is still relatively plentiful. If that is the case today, it will only get better as oil gets more expensive and scarce. You are trying to solve a problem that was solved a long time ago. I am not sure why you are still harping on this point.

[yesplease]

http://hutnyak.com/Trolley/trolleyhistory.html

Interesting concept but like I said before; stringing cable is limited to only specialized applications. An example you listed ---> 1956 - 1971: Riverside Cement Company...."These trucks operated for 15 years before being retired from service." DAMN. well if you're going to use something for 15 years then yeah I guess the additional cost of building overhead electric lines is justified. However MOST construction jobs are quick and dirty: building a shopping mall, homes, office buildings, etc...

You were asking about specialized applications, such as the diesel use in iron ore extraction, not building strip malls. Why are you flip flopping from your specific case to construction in general if the thread is about wind power?

I suppose you could use bulldozers powered with lithium ion batteries but seriously the cost of a windmill would be so expensive who could afford the electricity?

[cube]

The cost to string cable up and tearing it down after only a couple months would be ridiculously expensive.... Actually on 2nd thought........it seems the distribution of electricity is MUCH more difficult then it's production.

You are still not getting it. The economics of the system are enough to invite it's use today, when oil is still relatively plentiful.

The last time I checked, a housing development was created using diesel powered construction vehicles and NOT electric cables strung up in the air. It appears that: "The economics of the system are NOT enough to invite it's use today."

You are trying to solve a problem that was solved a long time ago. I am not sure why you are still harping on this point.

Just because some strip mine in South Africa was successfully outfitted with EV construction vehicles running on overhead cables doesn't mean the system would work in other places. MOST of your examples are specific cases where the construction job lasted for an average of 15 or 20 years. I'd hardly call that a "typical" construction job.

Why am I harping on this point? What good is all the electricity in the world if there is no means to distribute it? And please don't say we've solved the problem b/c we haven't.

[cephalotus]

I see a much bigger problem with trying to scale renewables to cover the amount of energy needed to replace fossil fuels. I am not convinced it can be done on the time scale required to mitigate the effects of peak oil/gas, even with conservation thrown into the mix.

You are right. Exactly that could be the main problem...


(klick on picture to view big version)

source: http://basis.gruene.de/bag.energie/ag/r ... ortrag.pdf (page 28).

Very interesting with lots of graphics, but text is in German

[kublikhan]

Just because some strip mine in South Africa was successfully outfitted with EV construction vehicles running on overhead cables doesn't mean the system would work in other places. MOST of your examples are specific cases where the construction job lasted for an average of 15 or 20 years. I'd hardly call that a "typical" construction job.

It is not just South Africa, electricity is used in mining all over the world. And it is not just strip mines, the emissions and noise from diesel equipment are actually more dangerous in underground mining than surface mining. Most mining equipment underground uses electricity to operate, not diesel:
http://mysite.verizon.net/sosborne1/underground.html
http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/pro ... id=6052397

The last time I checked, a housing development was created using diesel powered construction vehicles and NOT electric cables strung up in the air. It appears that: "The economics of the system are NOT enough to invite it's use today."

The last time I checked, we were talking about mining the ore to construct windmills. Why are you talking about housing construction now?

Why am I harping on this point? What good is all the electricity in the world if there is no means to distribute it?

In addition to cables, trolleys, and batteries, there is some interesting work being done with fuel cells as well:
http://www.fuelcellpropulsion.org/Minin ... _Intro.htm
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Mining+fi ... 0112801226
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _n14707675

And please don't say we've solved the problem b/c we haven't.

Uh, then how exactly are all those electric mining machines powered if the problem of powering them hasn't been solved yet? The point I am trying to make is the technology is here, now, has been demonstrated to work, and is used on a daily basis. Given that, I think I have demonstrated that mining can continue in a post peak oil world.

[dutchcyclist]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cdd_1203701257

The brakes malfunctioned.

[grink1tt3n]

Loss of wind causes Texas power grid emergency

Loss of wind causes wind power emergency

HOUSTON (Reuters) - A drop in wind generation late on Tuesday, coupled with colder weather, triggered an electric emergency that caused the Texas grid operator to cut service to some large customers, the grid agency said on Wednesday.

Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT) said a decline in wind energy production in west Texas occurred at the same time evening electric demand was building as colder temperatures moved into the state.

So much for wind power, eh?

[TheDude]

Woops! Wonder what kind of customers were affected.

From the Star-Telegram:

"This is a warning to all those who think that renewable energy is the sole answer [to the state's power needs]," said Geoffrey Gay, an attorney representing Fort Worth and other North Texas municipalities in utility issues. "We can't put all our eggs in one basket when it comes to any form of generation. We need to consider the cost and the reliability issues, in addition to the environmental impact."

Susan Williams Sloan, a spokeswoman for the American Wind Energy Association, said those technical challenges are not insurmountable. She said part of the solution is to locate turbines in diverse areas of the state. "When the wind is not blowing somewhere, it's always blowing somewhere else," she said.

The S-T also has this recent story,calling for Texas to hook up with the rest of the country's grid.

[Minvaren]

"This is a warning to all those who think that renewable energy is the sole answer [to the state's power needs]," said Geoffrey Gay, an attorney representing Fort Worth and other North Texas municipalities in utility issues. "We can't put all our eggs in one basket when it comes to any form of generation. We need to consider the cost and the reliability issues, in addition to the environmental impact."

Because, of course, wind is the only renewable energy source we use in Texas...