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THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Article: "The Alternatives—Coal..." by Dale Allen Pfeiffer

Unread postby annie » Sun 27 Nov 2005, 12:50:10

The Alternatives—Coal...by Dale Allen Pfeiffer
new article posted on his blog this morning (27 Nov 2005): link
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Coal production - A believer from 1979...

Unread postby coyote » Tue 25 Apr 2006, 02:08:10

Not that I agree with everything the guy says about coal, but my eyes definitely opened at the first paragraph...

In 1979 Ulf Lantzke wrote:Last year this article would have started with a call to double world coal production by the year 2000 as a response to the inevitable leveling off of world oil production. Today, however, experience in 1979 alone has lowered expectations of future OPEC oil production and reinforced the trend to a slowing down of nuclear energy capacity. Hence, it now appears that world coal production must at least triple by the end of this century if we are to have adequate energy supplies to accommodate even moderate levels of economic growth.

Expanding World Use of Coal

Prophetic, though he was a few years off...
Lord, here comes the flood
We'll say goodbye to flesh and blood
If again the seas are silent in any still alive
It'll be those who gave their island to survive...
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Re: A believer from 1979...

Unread postby Colorado-Valley » Tue 25 Apr 2006, 02:20:36

So did coal production triple by the end of the century?

Is that why we're getting all these massive hurricanes?
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Coal: 'learnaboutcoal.org' commercial

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 12 May 2006, 08:50:28

just saw a commercial on CNN promoting coal.

the 'factiod' they pull out in the commercial is that 'coal use has tripled since 1970 but emissions have actually gone down 30%'


don't watch CNN all that often so sorry if this is old news, first time I saw it though. I checked the site and its a flash presentation that doesn't like 800x600 so i had to enlarge my desktop. the site is pushing coal as a 'clean' alternative, if you can believe that.

edit: by the way it uses sound and is annoying as hell, be warned.

on reading the 'about us' page, this is written part of the way down

'Because they recognize the essential role that electricity from coal plays in protecting the environment while providing over half of the electricity used each day in the U.S. America's coal-based electricity industry (producers, transporters, and electricity generators) have provided the initial funding for this worthwhile project'
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Re: 'learnaboutcoal.org' commercial

Unread postby Merlin » Fri 12 May 2006, 09:05:04

I wonder if the one you saw is one of a series of commercials attempting to "educate" us about the use of coal as a clean alternative. All of these commercials use children to introduce us to the lesson. Very precocious. I laugh cynically everytime I see the brainwashing going on. Very sad really.
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Re: 'learnaboutcoal.org' commercial

Unread postby rsch20 » Fri 12 May 2006, 09:09:14

yes its all annoying children presenting the 'info'. with such illuminating points as 'homework assignment: 250 year of domestic supply + the technology to use it cleanly / Coal is a Fuel for America's Future'.

how informative.
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Re: 'learnaboutcoal.org' commercial

Unread postby foslrock » Fri 12 May 2006, 09:41:59

And so turns the horrifying world of deceitful marketing. The fact that they do use these little kids to beat in the propaganda is very telling.

I grew up in coal country, but now live in a state that is almost entirely powered by Hydro. The differences in the air quality of the environment are simply amazing. Also, emphysema is almost unheard of, unless the person is a long time smoker.
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There are emissions, and then there are emissions

Unread postby DoctorDoom » Fri 12 May 2006, 10:04:07

Many autos now also can tout extremely low emissions numbers thanks to technology improvements. But this is because the definition of emissions is confined to things regarded as pollutants by the EPA. CO2 isn't counted. If you care about GW, you need to factor that in. My scooter probably puts out more pollutants than my car does, but it burns 1/4 the gas and so puts out 1/4 the CO2.

I'm not opposed to using coal to help us make a transition off of oil. In fact I view coal as a valuable subsitute feedstock for important industrial processes that currently need petroleum. What worries me is that we seem to be gearing up for an energy switchover to coal while continuing to block wind and nuclear projects. It's not just the energy industry that's to blame; NIMBY activism deserves a lot of the credit as well. It's all predictable, if depressing. If this trend continues, I'll probably go the remainder of my lifetime (until 2050) living in a fossil-powered civilization, and leaving future generations an energy-depleted, overheated planet.
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Re: 'learnaboutcoal.org' commercial

Unread postby aahala » Fri 12 May 2006, 10:34:56

rsch20 wrote:

the 'factiod' they pull out in the commercial is that 'coal use has tripled since 1970 but emissions have actually gone down 30%'



I wonder what box of cornflakes this factoid came from. US coal
production or comsumption has NOT tripled from 1970 to the last
year stats are available(2004). The increase was slightly under
100%. (Source: eia.doe.gov, coal and electricity pages)

The amount of kw generated from coal has nearly tripled, but the
amount of coal burned to generated a kw has declined over the
years.

I suspect the 30% emissions claim has the same level of coal
dust in it.
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Re: 'learnaboutcoal.org' commercial

Unread postby dogf » Fri 12 May 2006, 13:03:49

New to this board and about 6 months into "realisation". Have not been reading as much lately because of work and really just coming out of the initial shock/almost depression...

Have there been any recent advancments in coal to gas as I read about a few months ago? Seems I remember reading the tar sands in Alberta are miniscule compared to the amount of coal they and Colorado and Utah have. Something about 200 years worth. So is this a possible saving grace for us assuming the efficiency of enviromental coal no longer becomes a concern when we become hungry?
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Re: 'learnaboutcoal.org' commercial

Unread postby Tapia » Wed 17 May 2006, 11:33:40

I'm glad to see others are just as concerned about this insiduous tactic being used by coal energy users and producers as I am. I've done a fair amount of investigation into this. The real problem with this site is it is listed as a non-profit which it is, but it is funded by Americans for Better Energy Choices (ABEC) which is a consortium of energy users and producers, and utlities (such as Southern).

I have exposed it at my site www.mmmfiles.com/mmm (an environmental website funded by a old professor of mine-- no corporate interests here!) Please free to come and check it out, and post comments with more information or what you see.
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Europe's Green Image Clashes With Coal Reliance

Unread postby Zardoz » Mon 19 Jun 2006, 23:37:36

Same problem the world over:

Europe's Green Image Clashes With Coal Reliance

Europe likes to think of itself as a place that has moved beyond its sooty industrial past, with energy that comes from the windmills that dot the Dutch countryside and the Danish coastline or the carbon-free nuclear plants that dominate France's power industry.

But with oil prices soaring and worries rising about the reliability of gas piped from Russia, Europe must depend heavily on that great industrial-age relic, coal: a cheap, plentiful fuel, but one that emits twice the carbon dioxide of natural gas. Coal-fired plants generated half the power in Germany and Britain during the chilly winter just past.


Europe, China, USA, India, and everywhere else, it's the same damned thing: We'll have to burn coal, but how can we deal with the mess?
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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Re: Europe's Green Image Clashes With Coal Reliance

Unread postby rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 00:29:27

Zardoz wrote:Europe, China, USA, India, and everywhere else, it's the same damned thing: We'll have to burn coal, but how can we deal with the mess?


Quite simply.

We're going to ignore the mess.
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Re: Europe's Green Image Clashes With Coal Reliance

Unread postby Kingcoal » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 07:45:40

Coal is king, hail Kingcoal! I picked my handle based on all the wonderful things you can do with this plentiful, magical substance.

Screw oil, imagine if we were facing peak coal? It's one thing if you have to stay at home because your car is out of gas, imagine if you had no electricity. We're talking primitive now! Besides electricity, carbon is used in more segments of industry than petrochemicals. Carbon makes more compounds than any other element. Life is based on carbon, carbon is good, carbon is God. Love my burnt toast, burnt hot dogs, anything burnt, carbonized, can't get enough of the stuff. Ah, just give me a shanty full of coal dust to roll around naked in...
"That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
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UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby KevO » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 04:18:01

well at least coal doesn't hurt the environment and hey, whta's good for China is good for the old colonials.
Where were Greenpeace?

FULL MADNESS here



"But yesterday was important. For a start, it was the first coal to come out of the mine since it closed in 1998.

"Development coal is the coal we needed to cut and bring out so we could progress the mine to full industrial production, so it was significant for that reason too."

Unity says the mine will be capable of producing up to one million tonnes of coal a year for some 25 years.

The drift mine is the first to open in Wales since Betws in Ammanford in 1974.

What has made a difference is increased demand and the cost of imported coal, turning mines that were not previously viable into profit-making ventures.

Unity Power chairman Gerwyn Williams said the cost of coal had risen by up to 50 per cent in six years.

"Extraction is expensive but given market conditions currently, mainly due to the increases in the economy of China and India, coal prices worldwide have increased," he said.
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Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Grifter » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 05:25:50

Is a drift mine the same as open cast?

From Wiki it does sound similar, it's the worst kind :(
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Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 05:39:39

Grifter wrote:Is a drift mine the same as open cast?

From Wiki it does sound similar, it's the worst kind :(


Under the old defenition a Drift mine is where a mostly horizontal band of desired material, in this case coal, is exposed on a hill or cliff side. Its like deep mining except you just dig your way in on the level instead of digging down to reach the right depth first.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Grifter » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 05:48:15

Ah thanks

Image

That was on google images
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Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Twilight » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 12:42:40

If you read the UK 2007 Energy White Paper, you will see that UK coal consumption is up, imports are up, share of power generation is up.

Domestic production is off a cliff (R/P of 5 years), but that's cool, we can haul 4/5 of what we use from Australia, South Africa, Indonesia...

I think that's a solid medium-term change. With nuclear decommissioning inevitable, maintenance downtime eating into plant life extensions, nervousness about whether future LNG imports will be sufficient to sustain further expansion of gas-fired plant, the cheap and easy "right now" option is to put pedal to metal on existing coal-fired capacity and modestly boost domestic production off higher prices.

The EU Large Combustion Plant Directive is going to be dead in the water by the time the deadline comes.

But don't expect much of a resurgence in the UK coal industry.
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Re: UK coal mine reopens after 10 years!

Unread postby Karl » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 15:09:09

Dont be too hasty in writing off the UK coal industry. Even the Russians now see opportunities. Ironic considering it was Mrs Thatcher who put the nail in the coffin of the industry.

[align=center]King coal makes a comeback [/align]A colliery in Yorkshire has restarted operations, thanks to a colourful entrepreneur and his Russian backers. Andy McSmith tells how the economic pendulum swung back for one pit

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/ ... 826184.ece
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