[savethehumans]

I've researched global warming and climate change for years. While looking in amazon.com for books on that subject, I also peeked at books on alternative energy, and somehow stumbled onto Heinberg's "The Party's Over." Really? asked I, and ordered it. The rest is history!

I'm a member of FTW; visit Matt Savinar's sight daily for news; have THIS site, of course, to post at; and have read many more books since that first one (Heinberg, Klare, Savinar, Deffeyes, etc.). Articles I collect like dust does in my apartment! And, yeah, I've seen "The End of Suburbia."

I seem to be able to do everything but prepare and find a community. It is nice to have you guys, at least. Helps the ol' depression to know there are others who KNOW. Anyway, that's how I got here....

[chris-h]

http://www.postcarbon.org/DOCS/resource ... %20v19.doc

[angryinma]

Hi. I'm new here.. I sincerely apologize for my rambling.. it's just random thoughts I've had lately. I live in the NE U.S. (Apologies for Bush, I didn't vote for him). I've heard about PO for a few months, and it always slipped my mind as quickly as it entered.
I'm not sure why, but I started reading different things about it. A few weeks ago I was excited I paid off my credit cards... I could start to save for a house with my girlfriend, maybe think about a kid or two, get my masters and start to restore my old Ford (again, apologies). She wanted to open a daycare.

Now, thanks to this, and many other sites, I'm scared sh*tless. The house seems pointless, kids seem unsupportable, and the car now looks like some steel I could use as trade.. *sigh*. She has no idea what's been on my mind the past few days. I don't even know if I should tell her. I don't want to say I'm anxious about it, but, I think about it more often than not

I've hit the point where I feel like I should start purchasing food and put it in my 30x10 shed. I have river property, so I guess water will be accessible. I seem to look at things lately and try to find alternative uses.

I run a warehouse for a small chain of stores, among other things, I can take home outdated OTC meds.... usually I donate them to a homeless shelter. Now I feel like I should just save *everything*. I guess I am lucky since I am very mechanically inclinded, and have tools most body shops don't have... Maybe that'll save me when TSHTF.. I can trade services for food. In the back of my mind I have images of Mad Max, bolting some guns to the side of my car for the remaining time it works.

First I was angry, then sad. Now I've hit the scared part. (I'm sorry if I'm rambling). I do sell some solar/battery/dynamo powered flashlight radios, I already have one. I feel like getting more, disassembling them and finding other uses for the electrics.

Ugh.. I don't want to just survive, I want to thrive. I live in a small town that used to be a heavy farming town back in the day... Now it's mostly all cranberries, and some corn. I'd love to be a trader in something.. heh.

Another thought.. When TSHTF, won't large amounts of people kill themselves? I'm not thinking it now by any means, but just a thought.

Should I attempt to steer my store policy? I'm pretty sure it's too soon for the sheep.

Ok /rambling

[Ludi]

When TSHTF, won't large amounts of people kill themselves?

I think if you look at historic disasters such as the Irish potato famine, you'll see most people are very eager to remain alive no matter how difficult it is.

[urbanorange]

I wouldn't get too worked up about it if I were you. I went through the gamut of emotions about six months ago and finally came to my senses before Christmas, when I realized that sham writers like Jay Hanson, Michael Ruppert and Matt Savinar were just pivot points for an apocalyptic doomsday feeding frenzy. The more I read and researched, the less I am a "believer" in the doomsday freneticism. Keep in mind that there might be many reasons people buy into the "dieoff" fantasy: a) they are bored and emotionally stunted in their "real" lives, and hedging a bet on 2 billion dead revs them up; 2) they want to leave the rat race behind anyway, have trouble convincing themselves they are making the "right" decision to live in the boonies, and can prop themselves up on the doomsday scenario to justify their decision; 3) at this juncture in time with the "Peak Oil" phenomenon, they somehow feel "superior" for being "in the know" about the supposed imminent collapse of our civilization; everyone else is just a consumer sheep and too dumb or disinterested to care.

If I had listened to these pessimists three years ago and sold my two houses to head for the hills, I would have missed out on one of the most profitable real estate booms in U.S. history.

Make your own decisions, but take it all with a grain of salt. What's the difference between their pessimistic prophecies and those of the "Rapture Right?" Only in this case, a billionaire Bush supporter, heading up an energy company, is their prophet. Thanks, but I'll take a pass. Good luck with your decisions.

[mindfarkk]

don't panic.
don't panic.
don't panic.

learn everything you can.

about twenty years ago i almost died in a car crash. after i got out of the hospital i had some panic attacks because i suddenly realized what it meant to be mortal. it will pass. life hasn't REALLY changed. the rug was always there under your feet. you are now more aware how slippery the floor really is. panicking won't help. keep your balance, think rationally about what you KNOW and what MIGHT be true and what is completely out of our hands, and do your best to start preparing in a balanced way for the most likely possibilities.

don't do anything impulsively and you'll be fine. remember right now you are in fight or flight and your thinking is extreme. wait for the fear to pass and you will regain some perspective. life is life. it always holds the potential for challenge. noone here gets out alive! sometimes these things can give you a grip on what's most important!

[pup55]

You are in a great stage of life. Be thankful you are not old and/or helpless. You should be able to enjoy a long and happy life. Also, you have plenty of time ahead to plot out your strategy, etc. so you are in a really good position.

a. It is not at all certain when the peak will be, and if and when it hits, how hard, so best to hang out and monitor the situation, gather news and other ideas, and keep informed. In other words, don't panic (yet).

b. If you can afford to have kids, go ahead. If you cannot afford to have kids, do not. Raise them responsibly, with respect for nature and science. They might discover something interesting in 40 years that will benefit humankind. In 5-7 years, they can be a source of cheap labor.

c. You did the right thing by paying down your credit cards. Keep it that way. You should be doing this anyway.

d. Buy a cheaper house than you can afford. Put leftover funds to various wealth-building activities. Difficult in New England, but do-able.

e. live frugally. Eat and dress cheap. You should be doing this anyway.

f. Get in shape. Stay in good health. You should be doing this anyway. Get a bicycle (cheap one, not one of those $1500 ones) and ride it on the weekends.

g. If you are making payments on a car, get rid of it, and get a good running but bad looking cheaper car, and put leftover funds to various wealth-building activities. You should be doing this anyway.

h. You have river property in the NE? How lucky can you be! Start spending time there, and plant some fruit trees. You should be doing this anyway. Learn to fish, if you have not already.

i. You have access to surplus stuff at the store? How lucky can you be! It will enable you to live cheaply.

j. You have a shed? How lucky can you be! Start accumulating antique hand tools on the weekends (common in New England) farming tools, hand-operated wood tools, etc. If the peak hits and you need tools, you will have them, if not, you cash them in later on Ebay as antiques. It's a no-lose situation.

If nothing happens in 10 years, just by doing the things you should be doing anyway, you will have accumualted enough wealth, at a young enough stage in life to be able to hang in there no matter what happens. If something does happen, you will be better prepared than 90% of the general public, and also be able to make constructive plans because you gave the matter some thought beforehand.

[EnviroEngr]

A nicely written composition to consider:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic4259.html

[MikeB]

All of those who have discovered the statistics about Peak Oil probably go through the intense emotional period you're going through. Remember that oil is not going to peak with a BANG but a [whimper]. It's most likely going to be a decade-long contraction, and if you start now, you'll be ahead of the game.

Get out of debt, and learn to do things for yourself. This is good advice, even in the event that oil doesn't peak.

Think of your great grandparents, the things they must have known how to do themselves, how this was taken for granted, and how they must not have thought they were living a substandard life.

It's modern life that's weird. Get out. Gradually....

[0mar]

Get out and do something about it. That's what I did and what I told everyone around me to do.

If you are still in school, take up a science track and focus in on energy systems. Ditch your car. Lower your standard of living now before mother nature does.

I am not a doomsdayer, but I do see hardships, death and destruction. You have to be blind not to see the facts are pointing towards a dieoff. Even without peak oil, we would have a hard time sustaining our current lifestyle. Peak oil is simply that final nail in the coffin.

[Guest]

Now I feel like I should just save *everything*.

Develop a 'saving stuff' based on:

1) How much energy-technology did it take to make this
2) How will it hold up in storage (pills - not so much, steel/copper in the form of a motor - yup if it has rubber parts - they won't last)
3) What will be my replacement cost - in case I can use this later.
4) Does it have value to others (aka is it 'ebayable')
5) Does it serve some other function - is it adaptable?

I've been watching a local "junk shop" move out. The place is FILLED with 'stuff'. 1-2 ton of ceramic tiles ("odd lots"), a 4 by 4 foot square area of table legs, buckets of paint, 20+ glass mantles for kerosene lamps, et la. The owner of the junk STILL thinks it has value, and "gets sick" over his "loss". You prob. do not want to be in his position - he is paying people to hall the stuff away, yet does not want to 'give' away anything if you are willing to pay for it or pay 1-2X times scrap value, yet to have a wealth of parts for one to tinker with is a joy. (ok a joy for me)

Try limiting your 'junk' space, inventory it well, and compare the items to 'ebay prices' - if you can convert it to cash, convert it.

[Guest]

I wouldn't get too worked up about it if I were you. I went through the gamut of emotions about six months ago and finally came to my senses before Christmas, when I realized that sham writers like Jay Hanson, Michael Ruppert and Matt Savinar were just pivot points for an apocalyptic doomsday feeding frenzy. The more I read and researched, the less I am a "believer" in the doomsday freneticism. Keep in mind that there might be many reasons people buy into the "dieoff" fantasy: a) they are bored and emotionally stunted in their "real" lives, and hedging a bet on 2 billion dead revs them up; 2) they want to leave the rat race behind anyway, have trouble convincing themselves they are making the "right" decision to live in the boonies, and can prop themselves up on the doomsday scenario to justify their decision; 3) at this juncture in time with the "Peak Oil" phenomenon, they somehow feel "superior" for being "in the know" about the supposed imminent collapse of our civilization; everyone else is just a consumer sheep and too dumb or disinterested to care. .

The truth is I got into this to feed my heroin habit.

Matt Savinar

[savethehumans]

BEAUTIFUL, Matt! Thanks for posting!

The only immediate advice I'd give (besides "don't panic") is that you share with your girlfriend what is on your mind. Show her your sources. Come by this forum. Look for more info. See what she thinks. If it's just a "well, let's just go on with our plans, and wait and see what happens" response--well, I don't know what the marriage plans are, but put them on hold. There is time for you if we are all wrong about PO. There is no foundation for a lifetime relationship between you (never mind having kids!) if we are right, and she doesn't change her mind.

Harsh words, I know. But we are entering harsh times. A lot of these people are giving you sound advice on how to prepare. Do as much of this as you can--as Mike pointed out, these are good things to do regardless. Neat that you have river property--many of us are jealous!

You've already realized the important thing: what you thought of as your future isn't going to happen--period. At best, society will be turned inside out. Die-offs and suicides, yes, are going to happen. Economies, as we know them, are going to change and collapse. It really WOULD help you to talk to seniors--the older, the better, as long as their minds are still sharp. They know how to live without all this stuff we think we can't live without. Their input is invaluable. (For instance a 60-something guy who rides the same bus I do, and his 80-something mom, are about to teach me how to can, preserve, etc. What a break for me!)

Keep in touch with us here. We care about how you're doing, and want to know what you learn--you may soon be teaching US things!

[Guest]

when I realized that sham writers like Jay Hanson, Michael Ruppert and Matt Savinar were just pivot points for an apocalyptic doomsday feeding frenzy.

Here's an idea:

Want authors like these to have nothing to write about? Get an honest and open government. One that doesn't "lie".

Simple as that.

As long as there are 1/2 truths or outright lies by governments (or others in power) the authors you list above can thrive.

[pkwonofsocal]

> When I realized that sham writers like Jay Hanson, Michael Ruppert and Matt Savinar were just pivot points for an apocalyptic doomsday feeding frenzy. The more I read and researched, the less I am a "believer" in the doomsday freneticism.

Unfortunately signs of PO are getting more and more apparent, whether you listen to these people or not.

PO people will always be the minority. The government and the media will sing 'everything is OK' until the lights actually go out in their own premises.

>at this juncture in time with the "Peak Oil" phenomenon, they somehow feel "superior" for being "in the know" about the supposed imminent collapse of our civilization; everyone else is just a consumer sheep and too dumb or disinterested to care.

Actually isn't that true? Most people are just too busy with their daily lives to care about such bad things, and some just go into denial.

It's easy to shut off something bad from one's mind. Unfortunately ignoring a bad thing will not make it go away. It will hit you with greater vengeance.

[pkwonofsocal]

>Here's an idea:

>Want authors like these to have nothing to write about? Get an honest and open government. One that doesn't "lie".

>Simple as that.

>As long as there are 1/2 truths or outright lies by governments (or others in power) the authors you list above can thrive.

There was never an 'honest' government, and it is extremely unlikely that we will ever have one.

The very definition of 'in power' indicates that the people in power can manipulate any 'truths' or other information to give themselves more advantages (and discourage any competitors).

Every government in history used disinformation.

[angryinma]

You are in a great stage of life. Be thankful you are not old and/or helpless. You should be able to enjoy a long and happy life. Also, you have plenty of time ahead to plot out your strategy, etc. so you are in a really good position.

a. It is not at all certain when the peak will be, and if and when it hits, how hard, so best to hang out and monitor the situation, gather news and other ideas, and keep informed. In other words, don't panic (yet).

b. If you can afford to have kids, go ahead. If you cannot afford to have kids, do not. Raise them responsibly, with respect for nature and science. They might discover something interesting in 40 years that will benefit humankind. In 5-7 years, they can be a source of cheap labor.

c. You did the right thing by paying down your credit cards. Keep it that way. You should be doing this anyway.

d. Buy a cheaper house than you can afford. Put leftover funds to various wealth-building activities. Difficult in New England, but do-able.

e. live frugally. Eat and dress cheap. You should be doing this anyway.

f. Get in shape. Stay in good health. You should be doing this anyway. Get a bicycle (cheap one, not one of those $1500 ones) and ride it on the weekends.

g. If you are making payments on a car, get rid of it, and get a good running but bad looking cheaper car, and put leftover funds to various wealth-building activities. You should be doing this anyway.

h. You have river property in the NE? How lucky can you be! Start spending time there, and plant some fruit trees. You should be doing this anyway. Learn to fish, if you have not already.

i. You have access to surplus stuff at the store? How lucky can you be! It will enable you to live cheaply.

j. You have a shed? How lucky can you be! Start accumulating antique hand tools on the weekends (common in New England) farming tools, hand-operated wood tools, etc. If the peak hits and you need tools, you will have them, if not, you cash them in later on Ebay as antiques. It's a no-lose situation.

If nothing happens in 10 years, just by doing the things you should be doing anyway, you will have accumualted enough wealth, at a young enough stage in life to be able to hang in there no matter what happens. If something does happen, you will be better prepared than 90% of the general public, and also be able to make constructive plans because you gave the matter some thought beforehand.

More ramblings..
A..... Trying
B..... Kids weren't in my future for at least 10 years.. I'm only 25, the girl is still in college... We both decided we wanted a house before kids... I've seen lots of friends fall into the trap of Get-a-job/married/have kids.... Oddly, their standard of living sucks... People seem to get more money, and immediately spend PAST what they have. Kids are included in that.
C. Agreed. I got stupid in college, mainly with (gasp/sigh) car stuff.. At it's peak it was $4K... Finally disappeared last month, took me 6 months of working full time.. I thought I screwed up, and felt really down on myself, until I heard from some friends with college bills and credit card debt in excess of $30K. See B about living beyond my means.
D. Well, I'm lucky/unlucky to still be at home with the parents. The house is very small by US standards (35/40 or so by 20, single floor).. One *good* thing, is I hope the credit bubble WILL burst, and I could get in on one of these now cheap homes, within my means of course... As of now, "Assisted living" requires you to make less than... $45k! for housing cost assistance.
E. I do. Or at least, I like to THINK I do. It sickens me at restaurants when people leave a plate half-full. I mean sometimes it IS excuseable, if you are sick, something wrong with the food, etc.. but.. *sigh*. As for clothing... Most everything is jeans tshirts,hooded sweatshirts. I dress for comfort at work. Jewelry always seemed frivilous (I'm very lucky the girl also agrees, she said she'd be happier when we got engaged (not yet, but hypothetically) if the ring was smaller, and the money went to a downpayment on a house, for example.
F. Imma skinny white boy In all seriousness, I think I'm good to go in that respect. The bike was on the list before actually, as the girl wants to go riding so she can get into shape.. I gawk at people who gorge themselves on food, and then complain when they can't fit into their car (no joke)... Isn't it easy to STOP EATING WHEN YOU ARE FULL?.. again *sigh*.. American's suck in that respect.. Maybe I'm lucky because I have the metabolism of a small furry rodent, but still.. How do people GET SO LARGE??
G. The car was cheap, and was paid for with cash. I did paint it and go through it mechanically, but that's all paid for. Currently it gets 24 MPG... I did have an engine swap planned. .For reasons that are beyond this post, a larger engine in this car gets much better mileage (34 mpg, reported on my forums).. I *was* going to do this for performance reasons... but now I want to do it even more..
H. The river is actually a pond connected to a river, and it's secluded/wooded/etc. My main concerns would be how to purify it (not really chemical laden, but, mucky at spots.. or is that muck good for ya?)
I. Yes. I can get things at wholesale, and the previously reported damages. Just a word of advice to everyone. Those expiration dates on medicine for the most part, are false. Add a few years to them... Many of them are there, 'early' for consumer purposes. (what the hell goes bad in toothpaste). I am going to toss a few large boxes of meds in my shed... i figure a few of those flashlights couldn't hurt either..
J. I have some, and could fabricate what I need.. Ebay is already my friend for junk removal.

As for the girl, that's the big question. Her big hobby is painting/crafts. Even before this, I always said to her I felt stupid because of my choices in school (I changed from engineering to sigh, economics, because I found 3 levels of calculus heady).. She has constantly tried to reassure me she doesn't want/live for/need for much.. Which IS true from what I see... She never buys anything for herself.. none of this "Oh that ____ Is great on TV, I want one". She is very rare. She is also extremely intelligent (4.0 GPA in college... graduated 3 out of 700 in high school). I'm just afraid to skirt the issue.. maybe I should pop in "the Road Warrior" and see what she says to me (IMO that would be worst case scenario)...

Hmm.. rattling off this list DID make me feel a bit better.. As for my goals BEFORE this. I don't/never did want a "McMansion". Nor did I want 5 kids because I could or 'it happens'. God even w/o contraception the rhythm method is "somewhat" effective.. Hmm I better stack up on non lubed condoms too

As for the work button.. I work with the owner of the company. We had 9 stores... sold 4 5 years ago. No plans to expand. The guy is "old school".. shut lights when you leave rooms, use old excel printouts as scrappaper.. (this should be common sense to all now that I think about it). I've never had new bound blank paper, we just use scrappaper at the office for most things. He hoards too, the warehouse is full of junk.. Ok, end of rambling part 2. Thanks for welcoming me
In all seriousness.. I guess for now I AM doing what I can.

[Guest]

I wouldn't get too worked up about it if I were you. I went through the gamut of emotions about six months ago and finally came to my senses before Christmas, when I realized that sham writers like Jay Hanson, Michael Ruppert and Matt Savinar were just pivot points for an apocalyptic doomsday feeding frenzy. .

I guess it's time for me to come clean. The heroin habit joke was just my way of concealing the real truth:

I got into Peak Oil because my Sponge Bob Square Pants obsession had gotten totally out of hand and I needed a good distraction.

It's probably just as well given the recent declaration of a "War on Sponge Bob:"

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0120-07.htm

Matt Savinar

[Laurasia]

Dear "Angry" (:)) : Your girlfriend sounds like an okay kind of person to me. Before you let her in on the Peak Oil "secret" just chill out a bit, and introduce the subject gently. Remember your own reaction upon finding out (which a lot of people, myself included, experienced at first) and give her a chance to experience the same things. There would probably be something wrong if she didn't experience some kind of shock and even denial at first.

Anyway, good luck, and I'm glad you've found the Forum, which is a good place to bounce ideas around, and pick up knowledge.

Regards,

L.

[threadbear]

Angryinma, New poster too, as of this morning. Look, you'd have to have the nervous system of a flat worm not to be scared about peak oil. There are all sorts of dismissive opinions out there, ranging from the turbo charged tsk tsks of the terminally trite, to the new agey "focus on abundance" mantras of the fantasy prone.

It looks like you're preparing yourself mentally and you have a lot of personal infrastructure to hold you in good stead. The peak oil situation is bleak but can be endured. As far as thriving, I guess thriving as a concept may have to be reconfigured somehow. If it's any comfort, globalization will be replaced with localization, of necessity. Supplying little stores doesn't sound like a bad business to be in, in that case. Your girlfriend should appreciate that you take having children seriously enough that you are doing your homework about what their future will hold for them.

I tell you what. If you can't scare the pants off of her with peak oil, have her google "derivatives time bomb" and "Warrren Buffet". She'll have her tubes tied.

BTW, UrbanOrange, I LOVE Mike Ruppert. If he's made a career out of waking people up, good on him. Does he get every detail right, probably not. Is he essentially correct? Probably. If you're tying your economic worth to property, check out the FNM and Freddy Mac financial nightmare about to unfold and good frickin' luck.