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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

My dumb idea: The Electric Air Car Copyright 2004 by dontwor

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Unread postby pilferage » Mon 03 Jan 2005, 21:11:40

In dontworryaboutpeakoil's defense, the air car idea is perfectly valid. Unfortunately for him it has already been developed.
http://www.theaircar.com/
IIRC they employ a pneumatic braking system that refills the air tanks a bit, I believe they get about 13% of the total energy used that way. And yes, these cars are viable, coupled with a home solar electric system. @ ~50km/hr their range is supposedly ~300km, if I bought a house in a city and had a solar electric system I'd definitely spring for one of these...
for a 15-20k investment I could be set when it came to electricty and transportation for the next decade or two! :-D
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Unread postby rerere » Sat 08 Jan 2005, 10:56:34

dontworryaboutpeakoil wrote:The same guys who laughed off Fuel Cells with numerous gloom and doom excuses are the same guys who are laughing at my Air Car idea. I sincerely believe my idea can work. If you haven't noticed, fuel cells can now achieve 1800MPG, something these pessimists here never imagined was possible.


So? I know of 'solar powered 4 wheeled devices' that get infinite mileage per gallon as they are sun powered.

Notice I did not call it a 'car'. Because the government has some rules about what is a 'car' and what is not.

Please provide the location of a government 'stamp of approval' where one of the '1800MPG' devices is a "car".


dontworryaboutpeakoil wrote:I know some of my ideas sound outlandish but I honestly feel they are doable.

Then find venture capitol and make 'em happen.
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Unread postby Devil » Sat 08 Jan 2005, 12:39:29

Compressed air is "made" by taking air into a machine and discharging the same air, at a higher pressure, from the same machine. There are two efficiencies to consider and these depend on the type of compressor. The first is the volumetric efficiency and the second is the isentropic efficiency.

The volumetric efficiency is the volume of air delivered at NTP over the volume taken in at the same NTP and may be as high as 0.85 or 85% with some types of machine. The losses are leakages past valves and piston rings, for example.

The isentropic efficiency is the theoretical amount of energy required to compress the gas over the amount of energy practically required to compress it. The lost energy represent that required to overcome the friction of the machine, the friction and turbulence of the gas within the machine, its filters, pipework etc. and, above all, lost as heat. Unfortunately for you, three guys called Mr Boyle, Mr Charles and Mr Gay-Lussac (look them up in an encyclopaedia, if you have not already met them) developed a series of physical laws, bearing their names. They stated that pressure, volume and absolute temperature of a perfect gas are all interdependent. That means that if the pressure goes up, so does the temperature and the volume goes down, or a combination of them. In a well-designed reciprocating compressor, you can reckon on the heat loss representing about 0.3 of the energy input and the overall isentropic efficiency will be typically 0.6.

The overall efficiency may therefore be 0.85 x 0.6 = 0.51, with a reciprocating single stage compressor. Unfortunately, you talk about 300 atmospheres, which is really beyond the scope of a single stage compressor. You will require a three-stage compressor with additional frictional losses, so let's say an efficiency of 0.4, which would be typical.

OK, you have your compressed air: what are you going to do with it. Push it into a motor. Now, Messrs Boyle, Charles and Gay-Lussac have a say here, as well. You are reducing the pressure of your gas, so the temperature will drop and so will the volume at any given pressure and the efficiency of the motor will drop, because it will not be able to absorb sufficient heat to make up the loss fast enough, so the air coming from your exhaust pipe will be frigid. So sad! The efficiency will probably be similar, say, 0.4, so the overall efficiency of your system is now 0.4 x 0.4 = 0.16 or 16%.

Now all this assumes a perfect gas. Dry air is such, but natural air is not, because it contains a gas which really upsets the applecart: water vapour. Even in the middle of the desert, the relative humidity can be 20 or 25%. When you compress air, the relative humidity rises to well over 100% and condensation occurs: yes, your air tanks will start filling with water unless you take measures to prevent it. Several ways can be used but the most efficient is a cryogenic separator, which chills the air to, say, -50°C, allowing the compressed air and most of the moisture to separate. Guess what? Separators require energy! :( :( Bang goes your efficiency again.

Now, what kind of compressor do you need? I've talked of reciprocating, which is the most usual, but, of the positive displacement types, you can also have sliding vane, Lysholm, plus centrifugal turboblowers and axial turboblowers for non positive displacement types. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. Please make your choice, because your design will depend on your choice,

So, with an overall efficiency not exceeding about 10% your air car is going to be a huge success, isn't it? This is not negativism it is pure science and engineering, two subjects about which you are blissfully unaware. You break our monitors with your total bullshit, which is derived from your ignorance about the most basic physics.

So, please take a word of simple advice. Shut up!
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Unread postby rerere » Sat 08 Jan 2005, 13:52:31

Devil wrote:...much deleted....
So, please take a word of simple advice. Shut up!


*clap* *clap* Thanks for showing the science. (now impress us by saying that took 3 mins to do and off the top of your head)
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Unread postby pilferage » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 00:02:01

Devil, my physics is a bit rusty, and approxiamate, but check out these links on the efficiency of an aircar
http://www.theaircar.com/ficha.html
http://www.theaircar.com/faq.html#consumption
Assuming they're accurate and it takes about ~52MJ to 'fill up' the car, and that it has a range of ~300km at ~50km/h. How does this compare to the actual amount of energy it takes to move a 750kg car @ ~50km/hr?
Based on the calculations here
http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/06-Speed.html
@ ~50km/hr it takes ~70N (~16lbs @ ~35mph), so the energy is a bit less than 15.75MJ (F=(750)(70), E=F(300))...
which seems to imply that these air cars get ~34% energy efficiency. Impressive if correct, and even if the Forces due to air resistence, rolling friction, and internal friction @ ~50km/hr were 140N it would still have ~17% efficiency.
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Unread postby pilferage » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 00:11:02

SOAB! I just realized that the article only addresses wind resistence... :oops:
you wouldn't happen to know how force much rolling and internal friction neccesitate the use of?
~100N more seems reasonable for these cars, que no?
Which would put the efficiency at ~13%.
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Unread postby Devil » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 03:26:19

rerere wrote:
Devil wrote:...much deleted....
So, please take a word of simple advice. Shut up!


*clap* *clap* Thanks for showing the science. (now impress us by saying that took 3 mins to do and off the top of your head)


It took a bit more than 3 minutes and I did consult one book, my old 'Applied Heat for Engineers' by J-B. O. Sneeden, 2nd Edition 1953, which cost the princely sum of 20 shillings. It has an excellent chapter on compressors of all types. This was used as the basis of a post-graduate course I took, aimed at electrical engineers. However, it was ~90% off the top of my head.
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