Laundry Detergent: Totally Unnecessary

[Heineken]

I've been washing dishes by hand all my (long) life, gg3. I'm opposed to automatic dishwashers on principle. Simpler is ALWAYS better, and for many reasons the world desperately needs fewer, not more, of such electrical contraptions. Also, the fewer the appliances, the more independent we become from greedy plumbers etc.

I'm dubious that an automatic dishwasher uses less water than I do to wash an equivalent load, but I'm willing to accept that it may be possible.

I don't skimp on dishwashing liquid, but the total amount used per sinkful of dishes is trivial nonetheless.

When washing dishes by hand---particularly in a college dorm!---many other factors than just the amount of dishwashing liquid determine whether you get a result that won't make you sick.

I think our society and its corporate masters have taken "cleanliness" to ridiculous extremes that may actually be harmful to our health in the long run, such as by promoting antimicrobial resistance, desiccated skin, allergies, and high body burdens of potentially harmful synthetic chemicals. These too are important health issues.

You seem to equate not using laundry detergent with "filthy clothing," but my experience is otherwise. As I have stated repeatedly here, and as some others have corroborated, washing in cold water and drying on a line in the sun and wind results in perfectly clean clothes by any reasonable standards. And I have high standards of hygiene.

Soaps and detergents may be pre-petroleum era products, but I suspect that 99% of the stuff on shelves today bears little resemblance to the home-made soaps of yore.

Yes, use soap, be clean within reason, but . . . bottom line inasmuch as this forum is concerned . . . laundry detergent is totally unnecessary. It's an affectation, not a need.

[Laurasia]

What ever happened to Borax?

I recall many years ago there was a detergent which had borax in it. There was this commercial of a long wagon team hauling the stuff across some salt flats in the US.

Is borax such good stuff?

I think it is pretty gentle, a bleach substitute. I may be utterly wrong on that, however - as I am basing it in part on my impressions of Boracic Acid, which is gentle enough to bathe the eyes, I believe. A lady at work told me that farmers in her family used to bathe their cattle's eyes in boracic acid to treat conjunctivitis, and I've heard that people used to use it for the same thing.

I think I'd better go and find out about that! I'd hate to have a bunch of Peak Oilers with burned out eyes! So don't try without adult supervision.

Regards,

L.

[Laurasia]

Jeeeeez! I looked up Boracic acid, (boric acid, whatever) and half the posts say it's okay and half say DO NOT GET INTO THE EYES! So I guess it's a case of "err on the side of caution". Wish I hadn't made my previous post now.

Regards,

L.

[nwildmand]

I think our society and its corporate masters have taken "cleanliness" to ridiculous extremes that may actually be harmful to our health in the long run, such as by promoting antimicrobial resistance, desiccated skin, allergies, and high body burdens of potentially harmful synthetic chemicals. These too are important health issues.

im in total agreement. our "corporate masters" have shamed us into thinking we will be "dirty" if we dont buy their product. what they infact have done is created generations of people that get sick just by touching their mail. their immune systems are crippled from not having to deal with germs and when the germs evolve from all that shit (which they always do) their crippled immune systems cant handle it. so what do they do then? yep get a prescription for that new superantibiotic that they will fail to use right anyway.

its a vicious cycle.

i will never use antibiotics unless im on my death bed. i will never buy an anti bacterial soap or cleaner. hell when i get a cut on my dirty hands i dont even wash them, i just put some electrical tape on the wound so i can keep on working.

all one has to do is look at hospitals and staph and realize what we have done in our homes.

sorry gg3, but ive thought you to be a germaphobe?sp for about 6 months now. i believe all one needs to do is not shit where you eat, know proper food preparation and have a clean source of water and 99% of germ problems will go away.

be honest how many antibacterial soapscleaners do you have in your house (which i bet dollars to diamonds is spotless)?

i have one for my beermaking and thats it.

we have only know about germ theory for about 130 years and before that people lived to ripe old ages just as they do now. sure our life expectancy has risen dramaticaly but i suspect it is more due to nutrition, medical advances, safer working conditions and infrastructure ie water and sewer than washing your hands.

i never get sick, i believe it is because i do not hide from or fear the germs.

[threadbear]

I think our society and its corporate masters have taken "cleanliness" to ridiculous extremes that may actually be harmful to our health in the long run, such as by promoting antimicrobial resistance, desiccated skin, allergies, and high body burdens of potentially harmful synthetic chemicals. These too are important health issues.

hell when i get a cut on my dirty hands i dont even wash them, i just put some electrical tape on the wound so i can keep on working.

i never get sick, i believe it is because i do not hide from or fear the germs.

Real men like to strip down, jump in the mud, snort and wrestle with pigs as a means to toughen theirselves.

Make yourself impervyous to microbial varmints by takin' it up a notch. Why settle for being mildy unhigenic, when you can be downrat filthy? EEEEE-HHHAAAA!!

[nwildmand]

Real men like to strip down, jump in the mud, snort and wrestle with pigs as a means to toughen theirselves.

Make yourself impervyous to microbial varmints by takin' it up a notch. Why settle for being mildy unhigenic, when you can be downrat filthy? EEEEE-HHHAAAA!!

nice threadbear, but i am impervious to this also.

i actually have done all this except for strip down while i am doing it. gotta get pigs to market some how. the sow does not put herself in the farrowing pen.

and i still do get downright filthy from time to time. maybe the reason i dont get sick is because i am impervious.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

and i still do get downright filthy from time to time. maybe the reason i dont get sick is because i am impervious.

Or maybe its becasue as was observed by a farmer from the 1700's

"Better to hunt in fields, for health unbought, than fee the doctor for a nauseous draught,

The wise, for cure on excercise depend. God never made his work, for man to mend."

[Chemo]

Hello, just joined. I'm an industrial chemist by training and worked for several years in the Australian coal industry.

Over-the-counter detergents including shampoos, laundry and dishwashing detergents are usually mixtures of two or preferably more surfactants (surface active agents) . The main types are cationic, anionic amphoteric and non-ionic, each with multiple subtypes. Each of these surfactants has a different role in a finished detergent.

In laundry use, some remove soils from cloth, some keep it in suspension. Most of these surfactants are synthetic or semi-synthetic. The "least synthetic" are soaps made from potassium or sodium hydroxide or carbonate and animal fats or plant oils. These have been used in one form or another since at least the middle ages. They are also technically detergents, but most synthetic detergents are not soaps.

Laundry detergents generally contain two or more surfactant types, with a fair addition of alkaline substances, usually sodium carbonate (washing soda) but sometimes borax. Other substances like clays may also be used to absorb fats and oils, which is why most laundry detergents do not fully dissolve. Other materials are there to reduce the effect of water hardness, while many laundry formulations also contain colourless fluorescent "dyes" that make washed clothes look brighter.

Most detergent makers recommend using more than is usually needed. This depends on the hardness of water. In soft water areas less detergent is required. When clothes are only lightly soiled less detergent is required. But if you use the recommended dose you will use more and pay more.

Washing in plain water will remove most soiling but not all and is all but useless on fats and oils. Borax, ammonia or washing soda will remove most body oils from clothing and kill most bacteria, as they break down the fatty cells walls of micro-organisms. But the operative word is "most". The surfactants in laundry detergents take care of almost all of the rest.

Borax is chemically called sodium tetraborate decahydrate. It is a moderately strong alkali. It is the salt of boric (aka boracic) acid with sodium. Do not get borax in the eyes. On the other hand, boric acid is quite weak and was once the standard disinfecting eye wash but might not be recommended by medicos now.

Most of the energy use in laundries is not the turning of a washing machine, it is the heating of water and the use of a dryer. To minimise energy use, use warm or cold water and a clothes line.

I recall Mother boiling clothes in a back yard boiler in Australia in the 1950s. This was in a small country town with limited power supplies and a ban on electric hot water systems. This came to an end around 1958 with the appearance of effective synthetic detergents and better power supplies but may have lingered in more remote places until the 1970s. It certainly was not common in the 1970s, I doubt that most Australians under 50 would have seen the old "copper" in action.

[Heineken]

Thanks for your nice, educational post, chemo---and welcome as a new member!

Although I don't use ANY detergent, I haven't noticed a buildup of "fats and oils" in my clothing, except in the armpit areas of white T-shirts. To which I say, "Couldn't care less."

It just doesn't seem to be a factor . . . for me.

But then, I'm a semiretired, farmy type. I don't have to wear dress shirts. Those thin, delicate fabrics and pale colors do indeed begin to display oily stains in the armpits if you don't use detergent.

The issue here, really, is whether laundry detergent is a necessity of life, or more of a nicety of life. Personally, I don't think it's either. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but I repeat: Vigorous washing of clothing in cold water, and drying outside on a line, yields adequately clean clothing by any reasonable standard . . . even if it may let a stain or two pass through. Stains don't bite!

I'd rather have a few faint stains on my clothing than (1) wear clothes bearing residues of laundry detergent chemicals that my skin may absorb, (2) help pad the pockets of detergent manufacturers, and (3) clog my septic system.

[Laurasia]

Well, I'm down to quarter-rations now on my weekly wash. I'm tired of always running out of laundry detergent so cutting its use by 75% has a certain charm.

Thank you Chemo for the info, particularly about boracic acid, and about boiling certain articles of laundry. Thanks Heineken for starting this thread about that most interesting of subjects, doing the laundry (and I'm not being sarcastic either - all the women of my family have enjoyed doing laundry) Of course the women at work all think I'm totally bonkers, but pretty harmless.

Well, time to put the second load onto the airers.

Regards,

L.

[gg3]

Welcome aboard, Chemo, I look forward to your input on a number of topics here.

---

Yo Nwildmand: Since you asked... and I think you'll be rather surprised.

No antibacterials here, at all. They grow resistant strains.

I use Nature's Gate shampoo as a liquid soap in the shower (as well as for its ordinary use as a shampoo), and I also use it for routine hand washing.

I shower on days when I'll be going to client sites or hanging out with friends, which is typically 3 - 5 days per week. I usually don't shower on days when I'm working from home entirely or otherwise staying in, unless that's three or more days in a row.

I wash hands after using the toilet, before preparing food or eating, and after coming home from work in the field (telecom engineer; client site visits in office buildings).

For dishes, regular Cascade powdered detergent in the dishwasher. Breakfast dishes (bowl for granola and spoon) get rinsed briefly and left in the draining-rack above the sink, and used for 2 days before doing into the dirty dish bin. Drinking glass (milk and juice) ditto: rinse briefly and use for 2 days before going in the bin. Dinner dishes (which typically have meat residues and suchlike on them) go directly in the bin.

The dirty dish bin is kept filled with graywater that comes out of the rinse overflow cycle from the clothes washer, so dishes sitting there during the week have the food residue loosened up & mostly gone by the end of the week. Dirty dishes accumulate for 4 - 6 days and then go through the dishwasher on a half-cycle with sanitize temp in the rinse (160 degrees). They are left in the dishwasher with the door open a crack, and I get clean dishes out of the dishwasher during the week (this amounts to storing my working set of dishes etc. in a cabinet that has just been sanitized, rather than in a regular cabinet with dust etc.) and use them as described.

Underpants and socks are changed daily, undershirt and work shirt every 2nd day, jeans every 2nd to 4th day. I wear work clothes when out of the house, sweats when at home. Long underwear gets changed every 3d day, sweats every 4th day. These are approximations that are adjusted empirically, for example if I wear a pair of jeans and a work shirt for a total of 2 hours on a given day, I might not count that day toward the total.

Laundry detergent is Seventh Generation with no added scent or brighteners. 10 to 20 milliliters per load, of which half goes in for the soak cycle, the other half for the 6-minute wash cycle. Laundry is color-sorted to prevent premature fading. Underwear gets warm water and a bleach cycle using regular bleach. Everything else gets cold to lukewarm water. I generally use the "gentle" agitation setting to minimize wear on textiles. Bath towels, wash cloths, etc. get changed weekly and the same washing treatment as underwear. Bed sheets & pillow cases get changed every 1 - 2 weeks and washed in warm water w/o bleach. I use indoor clothes lines instead of the tumble dryer unless some unusual condition such as having the flu requires sanitizing the laundry via the heat in the tumble dryer. I also have a micro-dryer (600 watts rather than 2400) for the rare occasion when I need one or two articles dry right away.

For household cleaning I use plain water for most surfaces, liquid dish detergent (Seventh Generation) for supplementary loosening of dirt where needed, Windex for occasional spot cleaning as well as windows, and plain bleach added to water for occasional (once a month to once every other month) sanitizing of counters & floors in kitchen & bathroom. Pine Sol and an electric scrubber for the tub/shower, this being the only combination that works on the damn fiberglass (I swear to God when I build a house this year I am going to put in enameled steel tubs/showers even if it costs a bunch more to do it!).

The kitchen & bathroom are in clean to sanitary condition most of the time. My work area is an ungodly mess of paper piled high and various electronic & telecom doodads scattered about like a mad scientist's workshop. My bedroom is "clean but messy" as per typical single male habits. In general I tolerate mess, I use reasonable precautions in terms of sanitation, and I don't overdo it but I also don't take unnecessary risks.

So, no germ-o-phobe here. Next question...?:-)

[nwildmand]

gg3 as usual extremely levelheaded and wise.

and i was suprised. its actually fairly similar to mine. of course if i get into a heavy work/party schedule the house work goes down the tubes.

[Chemo]

Well thanks for the welcome Heineken. You are correct about laundry detergents not being necessary for farm work clothes, at least in the short to medium term. I go to work daily in an office and have found that detergent-less washing does not cut the mustard with some stains. Coconut oil stains from laksa for instance. However with a very soft water supply here, using the recommended full scoop of powder in the old front loader is not needed, for most loads a third or a quarter is all that is required.

Over years I have avoided using much in the way of detergents. Rarely wash the car, and then rarely use detergent. Have not bought shampoo for years - the operative syllable is "sham" IMHO. Some will go "Ewww" as they have been conditioned to do over the past fifty years or so. Yes I know that seems like a pun but it isn't.

Just on the subject of septic systems, I have not had to live with them for years but in Australia, shower, kitchen and laundry water are/were rarely connected to a tank. They used a separate disposal system. The kitchen sink had a grease trap and the water from it and the shower and laundry then went directly to a sump.

[gampy]

Just an anecdote from me:

I have washed clothes in just cold water, and no soap , and they do come out rather clean. Mind you, they were not heavily soiled or oily.

It is not something I chose to do, just ran out of laundry soap, and needed to do a wash.

I will wear jeans or khaki's 4 or 5 times before washing, if not soiled or too wrinkly. They last longer, I find.

Very rarely use bleach...only on visibly stained whites. Always use cold water. My box of laundry detergent seems to last forever.

When I shower, I rarely use soap, just a washcloth or brush, unless I am really oily, or very dirty. I find my B.O. is less if I keep some of the good flora on my skin. Although I will use soap on my naughty bits and ass. Maybe I am a slob to some...but I feel quite clean just taking a hot shower, and no soap, usually.

Just a question for the chemists here: Is there anything besides detergents and soap that will reduce the surface tension of water?

That is safe for human use?

[Heineken]

Well thanks for the welcome Heineken. You are correct about laundry detergents not being necessary for farm work clothes, at least in the short to medium term. I go to work daily in an office and have found that detergent-less washing does not cut the mustard with some stains. Coconut oil stains from laksa for instance. However with a very soft water supply here, using the recommended full scoop of powder in the old front loader is not needed, for most loads a third or a quarter is all that is required.

Over years I have avoided using much in the way of detergents. Rarely wash the car, and then rarely use detergent. Have not bought shampoo for years - the operative syllable is "sham" IMHO. Some will go "Ewww" as they have been conditioned to do over the past fifty years or so. Yes I know that seems like a pun but it isn't.

Just on the subject of septic systems, I have not had to live with them for years but in Australia, shower, kitchen and laundry water are/were rarely connected to a tank. They used a separate disposal system. The kitchen sink had a grease trap and the water from it and the shower and laundry then went directly to a sump.

I use shampoo maybe once every 10 days. I wear my hair very short (and I cut it myself, using clippers with guards---those clippers have paid for themselves hundreds of times over), so more frequent shampooing is truly unnecessary for me. Sometimes instead of shampoo I just use a tiny bit of Ivory soap.

Wigmakers prefer human hair that has never been shampooed, I once read---it's stronger, apparently, and the colors are purer.

So many of the chemical products we have been socially conditioned to use are either unnecessary or not needed in the quantities prescribed by our corporate masters.

Septic systems and their maintenance are a fascinating subject, and a crucial one to country yokels like myself. I've learned quite a lot about them, and I intend to start a separate forum on them when I find the time.

[Heineken]

Well, I'm down to quarter-rations now on my weekly wash. I'm tired of always running out of laundry detergent so cutting its use by 75% has a certain charm.
Thank you Chemo for the info, particularly about boracic acid, and about boiling certain articles of laundry. Thanks Heineken for starting this thread about that most interesting of subjects, doing the laundry (and I'm not being sarcastic either - all the women of my family have enjoyed doing laundry) Of course the women at work all think I'm totally bonkers, but pretty harmless.
Well, time to put the second load onto the airers.
Regards,
L.

You're welcome, Laurasia. I'm also enjoying this forum, and it's having quite a bit more life than I thought it would.

Can't say I enjoy doing the laundry, but I respect those who do (and who do a good job at it!).

[gg3]

Chemo, interesting about the "sham" in shampoo. The other syllable being "poo":-) Why do you say that? For me conventional soap dries out my skin, and a mild shampoo works as a general-purpose liquid soap for washing my hands as well as general body washing in the shower, along with washing my hair. Simpler than having to buy an additional product (liquid soap).

Nwildmand: thanks; that's what I call the "eco-industrial design" approach to cleaning tasks. Here's a couple more examples:

Purge water (the cold before the hot comes up) in the shower gets saved in a 5-gallon bucket, which gets poured as needed into a smaller bucket and used to flush the toilet. This gets me four flushes per day without additional water use.

Laundry: I have a twin-tub washer (Danby DTT-420), which enables an interesting form of water recycling. The wash cycle uses the saved rinse water from the previous load's rinse (this water is clean plus a bit of dye from rinsing colored clothes and a bit of lint that didn't get caught in the lint filter). The rinse cycle uses clean tapwater, in overflow mode to float away residual suds and suchlike. The overflow from rinse goes into the dirty dish bin. The remaining rinse water (a full washtub minus whatever water is taken up by the fabrics) stays in the wash/rinse compartment for use in the wash cycle for the next load. (In Australia, the standard practice with twin tub washers is to do multiple loads on the same day and wash two or three loads in the same wash water, but my method works better for me since clothes line space is limited to one load at a time.)

Vacuuming: About 15 years ago I needed a vacuum and didn't think much of it when buying a second-hand 1960s Kenmore for cheep, which just happened to have a 2-speed motor switch on the back. The High setting is 800 watts, which is pretty standard for middle-of-the-road vacuums. But the Low setting is about 400 watts and provides more than sufficient suction for routine cleaning. It also turns out that 2-speed vacuums are fairly rare, so I got lucky: half the power consumption for almost all the cleaning. We're planning a design project on vacuums for later this year. The goal is 400 watts for most cleaning applications, with a reusable cloth bag and option for disposable bag liners. (Note, Miele vacuums presently have a variable power control that goes down to 400 watts, so there is a solution available right now; prices range about $300 - 600 which is about middle to upper middle price range for a good vacuum.)

Heating: 64 degrees in the room, plus knit cap and scarf on. But the eco-industrial design aspect was the discovery that a regular heating pad, at 40 - 50 watts, applied to the chest or legs, keeps me warmer than heating the room to 68 - 70 degrees (1500 watts or equivalent in natural gas).

Refrigeration: New design of fridge under development, total power consumption estimated at 200 KWH/year. We're going to sell these online once the R&D phase is complete this year.

[Chemo]

I should have written thanks for the welcome to gg3 as well. As for the sham in shampoo, well I do recall that in the late 1950s/early 1960s here in Australia it was sold in little plastic tetra packs - tetrahedrons, apparently as single doses. It seemed to be intended for special purpose use, the night before the big date, the wedding day etc. During the 60s it was promoted more and more - by this time in bottles. Anyone recall "Richard Hudnut Egg Creme Shampoo" or was that just an Aussie brand?

Anyway, even then it seemed to be a "special job" product, for perhaps once a week use. Now if you hunt around the net on the subject a lot of people, even men seem to be convinced that it must be used every day. Nonsense I say. By and large the market and demand for it has been created by advertising from next to nothing. It is a product that nearly everyone can well do without. It is sham necessary.

It's no accident that it comes with a conditioner to be applied later. Why? To alleviate the damage the shampoo has done. Again, if you hunt around the net you will find postings saying "Don't use shampoo, but try the conditioner by itself". Me. I wash my thinning hair with plain water from the shower head every day. Once in a week I'll use a little soap.

Mother, now in her 80s has a full head of mostly black hair with frostings of white. She has never used more than a bottle or two of the stuff, preferring mild soap. Her mother never used it either. I suppose that my father knows what it's for, but has never used it and he has more hair than I do and it's still dark brown.

Now if you find it does less damage to your skin than soap, that's fine. I have found that shampoo dries my skin far more than soap. And I use very little of that.

Many things are capable of lowering water surface tension. Probably alcohol, for one. But such things don't necessarily have much effect on fats and oils. There are plant compounds, some called called saponins which have a soap - like action. Many of the saponins are very poisonous and have been used in cancer therapy, so I'd advise anyone not to use them.

However soaps and synthetic detergent/surfactants are designed to interact with fats and oils. Part of the molecule is fat-like, a long chain of carbon atoms which associate with fats and oils. At one or both ends is a charged region, positive, negative or opposite charges on each end. Some dispense with the charge and have water-like hydroxyl groups. These are the non-ionics. These charged areas or hydroxyl groups associate with water molecules. The effect is to form a suspension of oil or fats in water linked by the soap or synthetic molecules, an emulsion in fact.

One natural detergent or emulsifier is lecithin, obtained from eggs or soy beans but very common in most biological systems. It would be madly expensive to use it as a soap or detergent, but it is used as a food emulsifier.

[dunewalker]

Vacuuming: About 15 years ago I needed a vacuum and didn't think much of it when buying a second-hand 1960s Kenmore for cheep, which just happened to have a 2-speed motor switch on the back. The High setting is 800 watts, which is pretty standard for middle-of-the-road vacuums. But the Low setting is about 400 watts and provides more than sufficient suction for routine cleaning. It also turns out that 2-speed vacuums are fairly rare, so I got lucky: half the power consumption for almost all the cleaning. We're planning a design project on vacuums for later this year. The goal is 400 watts for most cleaning applications, with a reusable cloth bag and option for disposable bag liners. (Note, Miele vacuums presently have a variable power control that goes down to 400 watts, so there is a solution available right now; prices range about $300 - 600 which is about middle to upper middle price range for a good vacuum.

Since we live off-grid, power consumption is of even more concern. What we use for a vacuum is a $39.95 Shop-Vac from the local hardware store, that consumes somewhere around 400 watts. It has a cleanable filter. Over the past 10 years, this is the 2nd one, having broken the first about 5 years ago. It seems to have plenty of suction for all of our needs.

[Laurasia]

Chemo: I grew up in England and I remember Richard Hudnut Shampoo with Egg - It was sold in those little plastic things we called sachets. I'm certain that shampoo was never intended for daily use - it's only in the last 15 or so years since it was accepted that some people shampooed daily, and in the beginning I think it was teenagers only. Now I work with a woman in her mid-forties who shampoos, conditions, blow-dries every morning. What a waste of shampoo, water, time & energy.

Regards,

L.