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Uranium Supply Pt 2

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Uranium Supply Pt 2

Unread postby Dezakin » Fri 22 Sep 2006, 16:09:42

sch_peakoiler wrote:Dezakin, I would like to ask you if you have links to scientifical studies about uranium supplies. All current studies only list uranium ores which can be mined with the price up to $130/kg. This amount is only 65 years of current consumption of nuclear fuel (not counting MOX, with which it would be about 90 years which is still not enough). Because the price have taken that 130 hurdle recently, are there any numbers on the amount of ore which can be mined when the price is high.

Not really. No one cares because 60+ years from existing mines is a hell of a lot, and there hasnt really been any exploration in the past 50 years anyways.

BTW. When you mean the concentration of 20ppm in phosphates, you do mean natural uranium, which in turn only has 7000 ppm of fissible 235? Do I see this right?


No. That would be .14 ppm of fissible U235. It doesnt matter because light water reactors consume about 200 tons per year of natural uranium, so its allready part of the calculation.

is from greenpeace so caution:) those guys dont like "nucelar" (sic!) But the report itself seems to be professional.

Dont trust anything from them. They consistantly lie, either with numbers from dubious sources or inventing data outright.
Ok, one nuclear power opponent gave me this link to an EROI analysis of the nuclear cycle.


The stormsmith 'report' has been repeatedly debunked as a fabrication, an interesting excercise on how to lie with statistics. The selected the most energy intensive enrichment techniques of the 1960s with the least productive reactor numbers. Gasseous diffusion enrichment is hellishly expensive, while modern enrichment is centrifuge based and very economical. They discount all breeder reactors even though breeders of various flavors have run for years at a time with better economics than most 'renewable' energies. On top of it all, they never consider CANDUs which dont require enrichment at all.

Follow the disection of their 'arguments' with rebuttals from those who actually took the time to analyze this stuff:

http://www.nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/OneCompletePage

And the exchange between stormsmith and the university of melborne:

http://www.nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower ... LSRebutall

The storm-smith paper is quite simply, a lie.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Sat 23 Sep 2006, 03:23:09

Thank you for the links.

As to the rebuttals of 'stormsmith', they do not cover the most important part of it - the yield to grade function. You see, even if they used very low efficiency processes to make an estimate - those estimates only influence a constant factor of the resulting function. You see, their energy function looks like this.

E(total) = E(mining)/(Y*G) + E(enrich)+E(transform to UF6) + E(fabricate fuel rods) + E(mainteance of the NPP).

Where Y is the yield and G is ore grade. If you now say they lied and have used numbers twice as big in E(enrich) + E(transform) + E(fabricate) + E(maintain) then their energy total would be halved. But if their Y to G function is correct, then their EROI calculation would still hold, because this term : E(mining)/(Y*G) causes the most energy expense.
I read a couple of rebuttals yesterday and none of them seems to address this Yield ratio. I will read your links, good if they do it. As an internet search on "Uranium yield to ore grade" gives only links to this "stormsmith" report or to people talking about it.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Sat 23 Sep 2006, 03:32:16

Ups, 1 minute after starting to read the first link, I found this passage

"The fundamental point about nuclear energy is that the energy content of 1 gram of Uranium is equivalent to approximately 3 tonnes of coal. This means that we need to consume about 3 million times less material with Nuclear Power compared to using Coal or any other Fossil Fuel. This substantially reduces the volumes of fuel and waste of nuclear power compared to Fossil Fuels. "

Do they speak about 1 gram U235 in this case? Is it not a deliberate lie about the waste then, because reactors use not only U235 but also tons of U238 and that is why the real fuel load ratio of coal to nuclear would be much less?
Yeah their credibility already decreases in my eyes.:(
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Sat 23 Sep 2006, 04:14:25

Ok, Dezakin, thanks

http://www.nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/SLSPredictOD

Seems to me this is exactly what I was looking for. They address the yield to grade ratio and analyse it in detail!!! And it seems to be credible as well.

EDIT:
After reading the whole correspondence I would say that storm guys blew it. Their last argument is rather weak :

"The method of Sevior and Flitney based on financial data appears to me full of hidden assumptions, bookkeeping problems, statistical pitfalls and uncertainties.
"

And one should mention, that this "financial method" was simply counting how much the predict primary energy input would cost at a rather low price of diesel fuel (has approx 40 MJ per kg fuel and costs approx $1 per liter that is around 1 kg. as well). And the calculation has shown that this would cost like 50 times more than uranium revenue to buy this energy in form of diesel. Even if there are "bookkeeping problems" they do not account for a factor of 50!! there is nothing "hidden" in this method.

Are you absolutely sure that there were no more arguments from those guys? because they clearly blew it here.

I tend to agree that they overestimated the yield to grade ratio in a big way.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 23 Sep 2006, 06:13:55

sch_peakoiler wrote:Dezakin, I would like to ask you if you have links to scientifical studies about uranium supplies. All current studies only list uranium ores which can be mined with the price up to $130/kg. This amount is only 65 years of current consumption of nuclear fuel (not counting MOX, with which it would be about 90 years which is still not enough). Because the price have taken that 130 hurdle recently, are there any numbers on the amount of ore which can be mined when the price is high.


BTW. When you mean the concentration of 20ppm in phosphates, you do mean natural uranium, which in turn only has 7000 ppm of fissible 235? Do I see this right?


I am hesitant to address the phosphate Uranium supplies but what the heck, I stick my foot in my mouth all the time, a little more shoe leather won't kill me.

As of 1998 the unit value of Uranium in the USA was so low that the last operating phasphate uranium seperation plant ceased preforming seperation.
By-product uranium production from phosphate in Louisiana to cease
By-product uranium production is to 'permanently' cease at IMC Global's Uncle Sam and Faustina facilities in Louisiana. Low uranium prices are cited as the major reason for the decision by senior management. The facilities' combined production of 950 000 lbs U3O8 (365.4 tU) last year accounted for approximately 16% of uranium produced in the US; 1998 production is expected to be similar. Meanwhile IMC's New Wales and Plant City recovery facilities in Florida have remained on 'stand-by' since 1992. (UI News Briefing 98.49, Dec. 9, 1998)

I have not been able to find any references to any of these three USA facilities re-opening between Jan, 1999 and now, but they have a clearly demonstrated capabillity.

If you read through U Supply report you will see the whole range of options as seen 6 years ago by the Uranium industry. Nobody is going to make any big moves based on the current short term high prices because they saw what happenned to the competition in the 1990's i.e. bankruptcy!

Opening a mine is a long term commitment, not something you can start up overnight, and if you dig in the whole bankroll and then prices go back down you are up the creek with no paddle in sight.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Sat 23 Sep 2006, 06:48:11

Hi Tanada,

first of all thanks for your patient answers to the questions which are preschool for you.

I became so interested in this thread because I noticed this discrepancy between the pros and cons. you know, in oil, gas and coal topics people generally agree on supply figures and only argue about scales, timeline and so on. And with uranium i noticed there is a group of people who are sure it is at the end and the other group who are sure uranium is for millenia. This discrepancy is somewhat worrying.

Anyway, to your argument about opening a mine. This is sure is a longterm commitment, but tell me, is running an NPP not a longterm commitment? Can you stop an NPP overnight? I think not, because it would be 1 GW less to the output. So if you know there are 440 NPPs or so in the world then you can estimate the demand much more exactly as with oil or gas (as it is so much easier to adjust the demand there - for example by decreasing the power output of the GPP or driving less - in case of oil).
So if there is a demand for uranium one can count on its being more or less constant. And as weapon grade uranium is soon finished, It is the high time to open those mines, dont you think?
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 23 Sep 2006, 09:53:40

sch_peakoiler wrote:Hi Tanada,

first of all thanks for your patient answers to the questions which are preschool for you.

I became so interested in this thread because I noticed this discrepancy between the pros and cons. you know, in oil, gas and coal topics people generally agree on supply figures and only argue about scales, timeline and so on. And with uranium i noticed there is a group of people who are sure it is at the end and the other group who are sure uranium is for millenia. This discrepancy is somewhat worrying.

Anyway, to your argument about opening a mine. This is sure is a longterm commitment, but tell me, is running an NPP not a longterm commitment? Can you stop an NPP overnight? I think not, because it would be 1 GW less to the output. So if you know there are 440 NPPs or so in the world then you can estimate the demand much more exactly as with oil or gas (as it is so much easier to adjust the demand there - for example by decreasing the power output of the GPP or driving less - in case of oil).
So if there is a demand for uranium one can count on its being more or less constant. And as weapon grade uranium is soon finished, It is the high time to open those mines, dont you think?


I think the crux of the problem is as follows. Most energy sources are carbon based, whereas most mineral resources are metal based. Carbon based energy supplies are actually quite the exception when you look at the materials that make up the crust of the Earth. Most of the Carbon on earth is stored in minerals that you can not consume to produce energy, things like Calcium Carbonate (Limestone) make up the vast majority of Carbon storage on the Earth. If you want to burn Carbon to produce Heat and Energy you need it in a form that is easy to combust, transportable, and as energy dense as you can get it. The confluence of those three factors turns out to be liquid hydrocarbons generally known as crude petroleum.

If you are just looking for a way to get pure Carbon from the crust then Coal/graphite is your best source, but Limestone comes in second and is so much more plentiful it is hard to fathom on a human scale. If you are using carbon for say electrodes in an aluminum refining operation you manufacture them out of artificial graphite, but for anything where you are trying to get energy out of the chemical bonds in the carbon you need weak bonds to already exist.

All of the metalic minerals on the other hand are energy loosers in terms of extraction and combustion. You can get heat and energy out of a lot of metals by grinding them up and lighting them on fire, Magnesium and Aluminum are pretty spectacular in this reguard but Sodium, Potassium, Calcium and yes even Uranium all have the same response. However, to make the metal pure so that you can burn it what you are doing is to chemically reduce it, that is remove all the Oxygen. You end up using more energy to reduce the metal to pure form than you can recapture by burning it as a fuel, so nobody does this with a few rare exceptions like using a Magnesium fire starter stick to ignite your campfire.

Actinide metals are a special class however, because you do not burn them with Oxygen to get energy out, you impact them with high energy particles mostly protons or neutrons but occasionally with Alpha particles as well. Thorium, Uranium and Plutonium are the most well known actinides because they can all be made to produce energy in a conventional light water fission reactor. However all of the actinide metals, Actinium, Thorium, Protactinium, Uranium, Neptunium, Plutonium, Americium, Curium, Berklium, Californium, Einsteinium, Fermium, Mendelivium and Nobelium have one trait in common. They will all fission when hit with high energy neutrons or protons and release copius amounts of energy.

You can not create or destroy mass, you can only change it from one form to another. In the case of Fission you are taking a complex nucleus and tearing it apart to make lower mass and less complex nuclei. An NPP running flat out for four years fissions about 4 tons of actinides into 4 tons of fission fragments. Cutting through all the mumbo jumbo ultimately this means we are currently consuming about 440 tons of actinides per year in 440 NNP's world wide.

We currently are processing about 68,000 tons of U3O8 (natural uranium) to do this, but the process has so much slack in it that the numbers can be quite astounding. Play with Enrichment calculator putting in the 68,000 tons we need per year under the current methods of production. With default setting the calculator says you produce 8,448 tons of reactor grade Uranium. Go to the second box and change the tails assay from .3 to .1 and hit calculate. You now get 11,851 tons of reactor grade Uranium by inputting more energy without increasing your Uranium feed a single ton. That one option gives you a 40% increase in availible fuel not just for that year, but for every year you choose to invest the energy to use it. You will need to build additional enrichmant plants to do this, but the cost compared to mining is trivial with the new gas centerfuge systems being adopted world wide.

But you asked basically why nobody is opening new mines. The fact is they are, it just doesn't make splashy headlines. The whole supply demand cycle for most metals is actually the better part of a decade. Demand goes down, nobody opens new mines because the price is low, demand catches up to the surplus, prices rise, people look around and decide to invest in new mines, 5 to 10 years later the new mines goe into production, supply goes up, prices fall, people stop opening new mines. As mines play out supply goes down, prices go up, the cycle repeats.

You are living in year 3 of the Uranium bull market, you have to understand that those new mines are still 2 to 7 years in the future on the supply side of the equation. I predict that barring the end of the world in 7 more years everyone will be whining about the Uranium surplus and low prices.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby M_B_S » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 01:11:04

Hi here I am !

PEAKOIL=PEAKURANIUM

55,75 $/lb :twisted: +3,2%/week


You want to know what exponetial growth is ?


Look at the chart :!:



[web]http://www.uxc.com/review/uxc_g_price.html[/web]
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby SDC » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 16:14:17

M_B_S wrote:Hi here I am !

PEAKOIL=PEAKURANIUM

55,75 $/lb :twisted: +3,2%/week



I have been lurking this thread for quite a while now, and all through it you've posted things like this. Price is not supply - as people have said, we've been running off material from weapons and stockpile for quite a while now.

Disagree? Think that these raises in price are directly linked to the supply running out?

Prove it. If you think that Uranium really is running out, and that the price has a direct correlation to the supply, then prove that it does. If you think that there isn't much more Uranium to be found, prove it, back it up with facts.

(Weather or not Uranium would otherwise last as long as some say it is with our population doubling every couple of decades is another story, however.)
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 21:17:53

M_B_S wrote:Hi here I am !

PEAKOIL=PEAKURANIUM

55,75 $/lb :twisted: +3,2%/week


You want to know what exponetial growth is ?


Yeah look at the chart off the web site you love to point too :::[web]http://www.uxc.com/review/uxc_g_hist-price.html[/web]

Clearly we are still in the price doldrums of the 30 year cycle, but don;t let that worry you it is just, The Inconveniant Truth!
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 21:22:11

I think you mix up two different things. One thing is to post the link to uxc each time the price goes up. A totally different thing is to participate in a discussion. In order to do this one would have to understand at least some basics about the subject.

Guess which thing is easier to do? :)
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby Dezakin » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 00:51:39

sch_peakoiler wrote:I think you mix up two different things. One thing is to post the link to uxc each time the price goes up. A totally different thing is to participate in a discussion. In order to do this one would have to understand at least some basics about the subject.

Guess which thing is easier to do? :)

Why do you think mbs is the only one on my ignore list. You cant discuss with an eliza.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 02:20:53

Dezakin wrote:
sch_peakoiler wrote:I think you mix up two different things. One thing is to post the link to uxc each time the price goes up. A totally different thing is to participate in a discussion. In order to do this one would have to understand at least some basics about the subject.

Guess which thing is easier to do? :)

Why do you think mbs is the only one on my ignore list. You cant discuss with an eliza.


no you can not :) I think he just does not have what it takes to understand matters that complicated. Peakoil is a rather simplistic concept, that is what he got on the fly, and is now trying to apply everywhere. I tried telling him, that, to begin with, Uranium is a nuclear fuel, not chemical.... guess which answer I got.

I think he will stop posting when after couple of years still nothing happens, no nuclear shutdown, nothing:)
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby miniTAX » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 02:02:41

sch_peakoiler wrote:I think he will stop posting when after couple of years still nothing happens, no nuclear shutdown, nothing:)

A little bit like the 2006 Hurricane season topic where doomers are now magically silent :-D
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic18730-0-asc-15.html
Just wait some more years and you'll be able to list a hilarious best-of of this forum.
"Of the dozen insecticides WHO has approved as safe for house spraying, the most effective is DDT" (Arata Kochi, WHO's malaria chief).
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby GoIllini » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 02:52:50

miniTAX wrote:
sch_peakoiler wrote:I think he will stop posting when after couple of years still nothing happens, no nuclear shutdown, nothing:)

A little bit like the 2006 Hurricane season topic where doomers are now magically silent :-D
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic18730-0-asc-15.html
Just wait some more years and you'll be able to list a hilarious best-of of this forum.


How 'bout this one:

Recession by 2006: http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic9629.html

Meanwhile, the DJIA is breaking its old record...
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Fri 06 Oct 2006, 08:19:01

NtL technolgy. An interesting thing. Of course only if Dezakin and Tanada are not mistaken about the future of the nuclear :)

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09 ... .html#more
Last edited by sch_peakoiler on Mon 02 Jun 2008, 09:49:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby M_B_S » Sat 07 Oct 2006, 04:53:37

Peak Oil=Peak Uranium

Wait and see :!:

Uranium production in Canada and Australia is down 30% this year!

see Deutsche Bank / Platts

Namibia down 5,5% so world production is in decline 2006


thats what i think are hard facts or better the reality 2006

M_B_S
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby M_B_S » Sat 07 Oct 2006, 05:03:21

HARD FACTS and independent ! :twisted:



[web]http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/briefings/energyfactsheet4.pdf[/web]
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Sat 07 Oct 2006, 05:14:02

M_B_S wrote:Peak Oil=Peak Uranium

Wait and see :!:

Uranium production in Canada and Australia is down 30% this year!

see Deutsche Bank / Platts

Namibia down 5,5% so world production is in decline 2006


thats what i think are hard facts or better the reality 2006

M_B_S



The fact that the production from existing mines goes down, does not tell us anything about the peak. Uranium has not been explored for some 30 years now, and no new mines have been built. So this current decline is not relevant. It will become relevant only if it leads to problems in supplies for BIG nuclear consumers.

And may be you try to read arguments brought up against that stormsmith report, which you quote and cite all the time.
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Re: Uranium Supply

Unread postby sch_peakoiler » Sat 07 Oct 2006, 05:23:02

A question to Dezakin and Tanada

I wanted to ask about the mining logistics of low grade uranium. If we have a mine with the ore grade about 20 ppm, it means we have to mine 1 million tons for every 20 tons of natural uranium, right? Is this not a too complicated logistic endeavor?
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