THE Rental Property Income Thread (merged)

[pup55]

We were just doing what we were trained to do by our parents, the "greatest generation". All we hear are these stories about how some guy bought a house for $8000 in 1967 and now it is worth $250K.

There are some lessons about thrift, hard work, character, self-restraint, a few other things that we missed along the way somehow.

It will all work out at some point.

[lutherquick]

I was born in 1965, so technicaly I'm not a boomer...

I think home values in the near future will be based on sustainability, energy efficiency, community, etc...
Many of the baby boomers will lose their shirts, big time, some will profit very well.
Homes in the future will not be just about quantity or quality or size, they will be about dealing with the effect of peak oil.

Small farms will sell well.

I think these baby boomer are hoping more immigrants will buy their homes. Or immigrants will displace the cheaper home market, thus pushing the young Americans up the wealth ladder, and they will buy the baby boomer homes.

It's going to be complicated, everyone will maneuver and try to guess the market. Most live in a delusion that growth will go on forever.
State nursing homes will house these baby boomers, and nothing will be left as inheritance to their children.
Quality of life will diminish in America, just as they retire.

[JoeW]

Clearly, the baby boomers will be remembered as a generation that made many mistakes.
They probably did some good things, also. I just can't think of any at this moment.
Most of the boomers that I have worked with have a huge sense of entitlement, make two or three times what their younger counterparts get paid, and do very little work--preferring instead to make EBay purchases during work hours, checking sports scores, shooting the breeze around the water cooler, and generally expending most of their effort dodging questions for which they have no answers because they are poorly educated and lazy. Ah, and they like to come up with new buzzwords and try to figure out how to work them into the conversation. I have noticed that lately many of them like to discuss how they will Leverage a Resource for this or that, which means getting a contractor, co-op, or less senior employee to do the actual work that needs to get done so they can go back to their EBay search for yet another classic car, or get back on the phone with their realtor about that 3rd home in Florida...

[clueless]

Clearly, the baby boomers will be remembered as a generation that made many mistakes.
They probably did some good things, also. I just can't think of any at this moment.
Most of the boomers that I have worked with have a huge sense of entitlement, make two or three times what their younger counterparts get paid, and do very little work--preferring instead to make EBay purchases during work hours, checking sports scores, shooting the breeze around the water cooler, and generally expending most of their effort dodging questions for which they have no answers because they are poorly educated and lazy. Ah, and they like to come up with new buzzwords and try to figure out how to work them into the conversation. I have noticed that lately many of them like to discuss how they will Leverage a Resource for this or that, which means getting a contractor, co-op, or less senior employee to do the actual work that needs to get done so they can go back to their EBay search for yet another classic car, or get back on the phone with their realtor about that 3rd home in Florida...

I went to a peak oil function (Heingberg) here in town, that was sponsored by the local utility co. and the Mayor, and was shocked by how many people in their twenties attending the event. 20 somethings outnumbered boomers by at least 10 to 1, I couldn't help thinking how the kids are going to react when they are asked to shoulder the final stages of their allready profligate lifestyles ?

Going to be interesting - They have already saddled the younger generations with the housing bubble, pensions, medicare, stock option ripoffs, the list goes on and on.

But know this, the cat will be let out of the bag.....

[JoeW]

I went to a peak oil function (Heingberg) here in town, that was sponsored by the local utility co. and the Mayor, and was shocked by how many people in their twenties attending the event. 20 somethings outnumbered boomers by at least 10 to 1, I couldn't help thinking how the kids are going to react when they are asked to shoulder the final stages of their allready profligate lifestyles ?

Going to be interesting - They have already saddled the younger generations with the housing bubble, pensions, medicare, stock option ripoffs, the list goes on and on.

The Boomer generation typifies what the United States have become--a group of individuals that are easily categorized as "haves" and "have-nots".
Among the "haves", there are those with post-high-school educations that were rare in their time and catapulted them to relatively easy success; and there are those who graduated high school or dropped out and took up work at whichever company would hire such an individual, and had the good fortune of never being at the receiving end of a corporate downsizing, watching their wage increase gradually each and every year.
Among the "have-nots" are those that suffered financial loss due to medical problems, corporate downsizing, and divorce... And then there are those that just never had the ambition to look much further than a low-wage job, or had such poor social or mental skill that even their fellow boomers will not now hire them for a decent wage.
"Generation X," on the other hand [my generation, by the way], typifies what the United States will soon become. Among them are the high school graduates who mainly will not be afforded many opportunities...the college graduates who will not be afforded much more...and all of them wanting to have it as good as their parents.
It is a recipe for disaster.

[clueless]

I have to agree -

I believe "peakoil" will not even be that discernable in the midst of the societal chaos to come. Debt is going to take the middle class (as if there is even such a thing now) down the tubes.

I was 7 & 12 during the last economic shocks that were only related to the oil import situation, now there are about 5 other things coming down the pipe and the "Boomers" are clueless. And they were warned , I remember listening to all the rhetoric.

I have been singing that Beach Boys song "Fun,Fun,Fun" lately and chuckle when I listen to the words, if you want to hear something that typifies them listen to the words in that song.

Well fellow Boomers, Daddy's coming for the TBird...

On a further note - I cannot envision the Fed reflating this real estate bubble, can you ???

[lateStarter]

Clearly, the baby boomers will be remembered as a generation that made many mistakes.
They probably did some good things, also. I just can't think of any at this moment.
Most of the boomers that I have worked with have a huge sense of entitlement, make two or three times what their younger counterparts get paid, and do very little work--preferring instead to make EBay purchases during work hours, checking sports scores, shooting the breeze around the water cooler, and generally expending most of their effort dodging questions for which they have no answers because they are poorly educated and lazy. Ah, and they like to come up with new buzzwords and try to figure out how to work them into the conversation. I have noticed that lately many of them like to discuss how they will Leverage a Resource for this or that, which means getting a contractor, co-op, or less senior employee to do the actual work that needs to get done so they can go back to their EBay search for yet another classic car, or get back on the phone with their realtor about that 3rd home in Florida...

Nice summary JoeW. Guilty as charged. I can personally attest that much of the boomer sucess can be attributed to being in the right place at the right time. If you were semi-attractive, had a bit of common sense, and could communicate reasonably well with your peers and upper management, you had the world at your feet. Having not been in the US workforce for several years now, I can only imagine how far the situation has degraded (Dilbert-wise).

Just so you don't feel bad, here in Europe, it is common to find very bright young people with 2 advanced degrees in business, that can speak 4 or 5 langauges and they are delivering pizza to make ends meet. They made all the right moves, it was just a case of timing. The train had already left the station years ago. I really feel bad for these younger folks because nobody told them that what they were looking to attain was only an illusion (thanks to Cheap Oil).

[Vexed]

Just so you don't feel bad, here in Europe, it is common to find very bright young people with 2 advanced degrees in business, that can speak 4 or 5 langauges and they are delivering pizza to make ends meet.

Most of the world would love to have the opportunity to deliver pizza.

When I was traveling in India, N.Africa, and Asia I was consistently surprised to find that the "Street hustlers" were often fluent in numerous languages as well. Many of them were highly self-educated. One guy who broke his back hauling me around in a rickshaw all day, addressed me in 5 languages before he guessed I was American. After buying him some formula for his starving kid, he revealed to me that he had a science degree. It was just meaningless without any jobs.

It made me want to cry.

[max_power29]

Clearly, the baby boomers will be remembered as a generation that made many mistakes.
They probably did some good things, also. I just can't think of any at this moment.
Most of the boomers that I have worked with have a huge sense of entitlement, make two or three times what their younger counterparts get paid, and do very little work--preferring instead to make EBay purchases during work hours, checking sports scores, shooting the breeze around the water cooler, and generally expending most of their effort dodging questions for which they have no answers because they are poorly educated and lazy. Ah, and they like to come up with new buzzwords and try to figure out how to work them into the conversation. I have noticed that lately many of them like to discuss how they will Leverage a Resource for this or that, which means getting a contractor, co-op, or less senior employee to do the actual work that needs to get done so they can go back to their EBay search for yet another classic car, or get back on the phone with their realtor about that 3rd home in Florida...

Good Call! you just described my work place to a tee

[max_power29]

Clearly, the baby boomers will be remembered as a generation that made many mistakes.
They probably did some good things, also. I just can't think of any at this moment.
Most of the boomers that I have worked with have a huge sense of entitlement, make two or three times what their younger counterparts get paid, and do very little work--preferring instead to make EBay purchases during work hours, checking sports scores, shooting the breeze around the water cooler, and generally expending most of their effort dodging questions for which they have no answers because they are poorly educated and lazy. Ah, and they like to come up with new buzzwords and try to figure out how to work them into the conversation. I have noticed that lately many of them like to discuss how they will Leverage a Resource for this or that, which means getting a contractor, co-op, or less senior employee to do the actual work that needs to get done so they can go back to their EBay search for yet another classic car, or get back on the phone with their realtor about that 3rd home in Florida...

I went to a peak oil function (Heingberg) here in town, that was sponsored by the local utility co. and the Mayor, and was shocked by how many people in their twenties attending the event. 20 somethings outnumbered boomers by at least 10 to 1, I couldn't help thinking how the kids are going to react when they are asked to shoulder the final stages of their allready profligate lifestyles ?

Going to be interesting - They have already saddled the younger generations with the housing bubble, pensions, medicare, stock option ripoffs, the list goes on and on.

But know this, the cat will be let out of the bag.....

Did you go to the EWEB one? I was out of town and missed it. I'm suprised the 20ish crowd was there. Most of my 20ish crowd peers are into the "american dream" scam hook, line and sinker. IS kitty piercy a peak oil believer? I thought she was just a crazy loon

[max_power29]

Just so you don't feel bad, here in Europe, it is common to find very bright young people with 2 advanced degrees in business, that can speak 4 or 5 langauges and they are delivering pizza to make ends meet.

Most of the world would love to have the opportunity to deliver pizza.

When I was traveling in India, N.Africa, and Asia I was consistently surprised to find that the "Street hustlers" were often fluent in numerous languages as well. Many of them were highly self-educated. One guy who broke his back hauling me around in a rickshaw all day, addressed me in 5 languages before he guessed I was American. After buying him some formula for his starving kid, he revealed to me that he had a science degree. It was just meaningless without any jobs.

It made me want to cry.

I hold a degree in economics. Our favorite profession here at peakoil!. I am a security guard with ever decreasing real wages and health insurance. HOORAY FOR COLLEGE! Your entire life ever since you were born every authority figure you've ever met or seen in the media preached the american dream. To me thats a breech of an oral contract between every authority figure ive ever met and myself. Can I sue?!

[clueless]

Did you go to the EWEB one? I was out of town and missed it. I'm suprised the 20ish crowd was there. Most of my 20ish crowd peers are into the "american dream" scam hook, line and sinker. IS kitty piercy a peak oil believer? I thought she was just a crazy loon

Yep - Eugene , Kitty opened it up and seems to comprehend the issues. It was a sellout STO.

I suspect most of the kids there were from UofO, I left here in 85 and just moved back, but can see how much the Suburbia crowd is falling under the spell. Are you in any groups ?

[max_power29]

Did you go to the EWEB one? I was out of town and missed it. I'm suprised the 20ish crowd was there. Most of my 20ish crowd peers are into the "american dream" scam hook, line and sinker. IS kitty piercy a peak oil believer? I thought she was just a crazy loon

Yep - Eugene , Kitty opened it up and seems to comprehend the issues. It was a sellout STO.

I suspect most of the kids there were from UofO, I left here in 85 and just moved back, but can see how much the Suburbia crowd is falling under the spell. Are you in any groups ?

I'm not in any groups. I'm a hard core doomer. you know the "mad max" kind of doomer. My strategy is to be the "last man standing" in my neighborhood after everybody starves to death or leaves looking for food and water. I'm going to claim the whole place for my family and close friends. there is a lot of good BLM land near my neighborhood. Imagine a big scotsman on a horse with a sombrero, poncho, boots and AK-47, saying "I AM THE LAW AROUND HERE!" when you venture into my neighborhood post peak. Anybody who i have given warning caught poaching or cutting trees on my land will be dealt with harshly. I consider signs and heads on pikes fair warning for poachers and bandits. I have thought it out and i can think of 3 main flaws to my strategy plans:

1. I get evicted from my house because of a miserable "soft landing"

2. Some jack off burns my house down and all my gear and supplies get destroyed. I really wish I had one of those steel houses!

3. Global thermonuclear War

-Each of these 3 scenarios would be equally as bad to me. I do not consider one any worse than the others. Each of them mean certain horrible death.

A permaculture group would be cool to join but i dont have any land to grow stuff on right now. I do however horde "hierloom" seeds. I also don't have time to take care of plants because I have 2 jobs just to pay the bills

[clueless]

I'm not in any groups. I'm a hard core doomer. you know the "mad max" kind of doomer. My strategy is to be the "last man standing" in my neighborhood after everybody starves to death or leaves looking for food and water. I'm going to claim the whole place for my family and close friends. there is a lot of good BLM land near my neighborhood. Imagine a big scotsman on a horse with a sombrero, poncho, boots and AK-47, saying "I AM THE LAW AROUND HERE!" when you venture into my neighborhood post peak. Anybody who i have given warning caught poaching or cutting trees on my land will be dealt with harshly. I consider signs and heads on pikes fair warning for poachers and bandits. I have thought it out and i can think of 3 main flaws to my strategy plans:

1. I get evicted from my house because of a miserable "soft landing"

2. Some jack off burns my house down and all my gear and supplies get destroyed. I really wish I had one of those steel houses!

3. Global thermonuclear War

-Each of these 3 scenarios would be equally as bad to me. I do not consider one any worse than the others. Each of them mean certain horrible death.

A permaculture group would be cool to join but i dont have any land to grow stuff on right now. I do however horde "hierloom" seeds. I also don't have time to take care of plants because I have 2 jobs just to pay the bills

OK - I've been there and can relate ...The PO people here are too into Buddish meditation while I am an Old Testamant realist. But This is as good a place as any to try to set up housekeeping. My family all lives up here and all have land.

I personally think debt is going to pop the US consensus bubble before peak oil will - We have no economy of any use anymore, and what little retail we do have is centered around selling each other useless chinese manufactured garbage.

In any case whatever happens I am just across Valley River off River Road....

[Kingcoal]

I used to be like you guys; miffed at the oldsters for being dumber and richer than I. One day it finally occurred to me; if you are really so smart, then why aren't you rich also? Isn't that the goal? If you are smart, poor and miserable, wouldn't you want to use your intelligence to become richer? I began to notice that a lot of people who I thought were so smart, were actually quite full of themselves. At the same time, I began to notice that other people that I despised as dumb and privileged were actually quite brilliant. These smart successful people were much more aware of certain realities. They modeled themselves after people who were successful than themselves and reaped the rewards. The other thing for you doomers to keep in mind is that it has always been that way. Before the oil age, it was the same. The only thing that is different now is that there are more people alive on the earth than ever. This will change with Peak Oil.

There will always be have and have nots.

[max_power29]

I'm not in any groups. I'm a hard core doomer. you know the "mad max" kind of doomer. My strategy is to be the "last man standing" in my neighborhood after everybody starves to death or leaves looking for food and water. I'm going to claim the whole place for my family and close friends. there is a lot of good BLM land near my neighborhood. Imagine a big scotsman on a horse with a sombrero, poncho, boots and AK-47, saying "I AM THE LAW AROUND HERE!" when you venture into my neighborhood post peak. Anybody who i have given warning caught poaching or cutting trees on my land will be dealt with harshly. I consider signs and heads on pikes fair warning for poachers and bandits. I have thought it out and i can think of 3 main flaws to my strategy plans:

1. I get evicted from my house because of a miserable "soft landing"

2. Some jack off burns my house down and all my gear and supplies get destroyed. I really wish I had one of those steel houses!

3. Global thermonuclear War

-Each of these 3 scenarios would be equally as bad to me. I do not consider one any worse than the others. Each of them mean certain horrible death.

A permaculture group would be cool to join but i dont have any land to grow stuff on right now. I do however horde "hierloom" seeds. I also don't have time to take care of plants because I have 2 jobs just to pay the bills

OK - I've been there and can relate ...The PO people here are too into Buddish meditation while I am an Old Testamant realist. But This is as good a place as any to try to set up housekeeping. My family all lives up here and all have land.

I personally think debt is going to pop the US consensus bubble before peak oil will - We have no economy of any use anymore, and what little retail we do have is centered around selling each other useless chinese manufactured garbage.

In any case whatever happens I am just across Valley River off River Road....

Cool, I'm out in thurston. Your produce you guys sell out there in the summer is absolutely delicious. Perhaps we will trade someday or already have.

[max_power29]

I used to be like you guys; miffed at the oldsters for being dumber and richer than I. One day it finally occurred to me; if you are really so smart, then why aren't you rich also? Isn't that the goal? If you are smart, poor and miserable, wouldn't you want to use your intelligence to become richer? I began to notice that a lot of people who I thought were so smart, were actually quite full of themselves. At the same time, I began to notice that other people that I despised as dumb and privileged were actually quite brilliant. These smart successful people were much more aware of certain realities. They modeled themselves after people who were successful than themselves and reaped the rewards. The other thing for you doomers to keep in mind is that it has always been that way. Before the oil age, it was the same. The only thing that is different now is that there are more people alive on the earth than ever. This will change with Peak Oil.

There will always be have and have nots.

I realize that by comparison I'm one of the lucky richest people in the history of world, and if you read my post on my strategy you would see that i plan on keeping it that way. However, in the event a "soft landing" or slow endless depression with high unemployment, i realize that I may lose this status. I don't think it is a function of how smart you are. for example the post about the smart rickshaw puller with the science degree.

I still think most upper middle class and richer baby boomers have a biased world view because of the oppurtunites that were available to them simply because of being in the right place at the right time.

[Vexed]

One day it finally occurred to me; if you are really so smart, then why aren't you rich also? Isn't that the goal? If you are smart, poor and miserable, wouldn't you want to use your intelligence to become richer?

I don't follow your logic or your goals.

Perhaps I have been priviledged.

[Zardoz]

Seriously bitter thread, and rightly so. Most Americans under the age of 40 or so will soon have plenty to be bitter about.

And let's not talk about what's in store for the kids...

[seven]

Boomers did spearhead many important changes in society and government - federal worker safety laws, anti-discrimination laws, creation of pollution standards, women's rights, social acceptance of sex before/outside marriage, children outside of marriage, and unmarried cohabitation, student loan programs, protection of land, natural resources and wildlife, affirmative action for minorities and handicapped, etc. - most of the 'good' things about living in our society that we younger people take for granted because we were born into this better society, instead of having to fight for its creation.

That said, sadly, the sheer numbers of the boomer generation, caused by the same charmed era that spawned the wealth that boomers squandered, will be a huge burden on society. However, considering that PO, climate change, global instability and the decline of our economy will probably gut our finances long before most of the boomers get to collect the bulk of their Social Security, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

It is tempting to resent the boomers for their time of plenty, and be angry that we don't get the same cushy job/college/housing/blah deal they did - and that they weren't 'wise' with 'our' inheritance - but it's kind of pointless and unproductive. Very few humans, when given tremendous wealth and ease, will take the high road and be smart about using it, preserving it - it's just human nature...average human nature.

Poor people who win large amounts of money in the lottery often end up broke, simply because they had the same 'jackpot' attitude that the boomers did. Not being used to wealth/resources, they don't know how to hang on to it, or make it grow. So, they spend, use, and suck the resources dry in an orgy of excess. Ease begets laziness, which begets overuse of resources and a tendency to deny that there is reason to constrain one's consumption. Expand, overshoot, collapse. Rome did the same thing - and we delude ourselves if we think that we are so different from those who have made the same mistakes throughout history. Easter Island, anyone?

Knowledge and technology marches forward, but human nature remains the same. Could we be so sure that we wouldn't have done the same thing, were we in the boomer's place in history?
I doubt it. People usually need disaster or serious hardship before they willingly curtail or modify a comfortable, easy existence.

At least they made a start - pollution laws, conservation, acceptance of women in the workforce, fair wages, etc. Like humans throughout history, wealth and ease seduced them (or, most of them) into indolence and wastefulness. Each generation thinks that it is better and smarter than all those who came before...it's just our bad luck to be born at a time when western society humans will have to learn to do with much less - when they are used to having, or were promised, much more.

If PO and climate shifts cause drastic changes over a fairly short period of time, I wouldn't be surprised to see rage at boomers translate into widespread violence by pissed off youth who don't get to have anything but an increasingly hard life - we shall see.