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THE Palm Oil Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

THE Palm Oil Thread (merged)

Unread postby lorenzo » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 12:14:19

I don't know if this thread is in the right forum. I want to come back to palm oil one more time. Let's take a look at the advantages and disadvantages of palm oil mega-plantations, and weigh them off.

Advantages:
1. Tropical countries have a fantastic opportunity to become oil independent by creating a palm oil industry. The palm oil can be used to replace the fast rising oil consumption of those countries, where fuel cells and hydrogen are decades away.

2. Some of those countries (most notably the Democratic Republic of the Congo) even have the potential to become major Crude Palm Oil exporters (Congo's theoretical potential is several million barrels per day). Moreover, byproducts of the palm oil industry (kernels) can be exported to be used as a renewable feedstock for co-firing with coal (some companies in Europe are already doing this.)

3. For those countries, who are marred by poverty and where up to 70% of all households live in rural areas, the creation of a palm oil industry promises to bring millions of jobs, lifting millions out of poverty.

4. The effects of rising oil prices are far higher in poor countries than in highly developed industrialized countries, so oil independence has even greater positive macro-economic effects for those countries than for others

5. Access to an abundant liquid biofuel that is locally produced, could finally tackle some of the problems in the transport infrastructure of those countries, which suffer under lack of cheap fuel with which to transport agriculture commodities to wider markets

6. Since no alternatives can compete with palm oil, it's a fair bet (neither wind, nor solar or hydro or nuclear are realistic for those countries); moreover, palm oil plantations are low-tech and easy to manage

7. Since oil prices will continue to rise, while the world fleet of cars, trucks, boats, ships, trains and heavy industrial equipment will still be diesel for decades to come, revenues from palm oil may become a spectacular and very steady stream of income into the treasury of those poor countries.

Disadvantages:
Image
1. Palm oil thrives in a relatively narrow band around the equator (10° North and South), and that's exactly where some of the world's last tropical rainforests are; so a mega palm oil industry will destroy those forests and their biodiversity.

2. The mega monoculture approach is fragile: one new disease and the entire system may suffer great losses.

3. The effects on the environment are potentially disastrous: the destruction of rainforest may cause drought; burning the forest releases megatonnes of CO2; soils may get depleted; when relying on irrigation, water resources may get depleted, etc...

4. The risk exists that only big (Chinese, Malaysian, Indonesian) conglomerates enter this industry, using ruthless neo-colonial methods and leaving not a single dime to the owners of the land who are being exploited as cheap labor (while European or American colonizers may offer them at least one dime and stick to some basic labor rules)

Image

In short, a palm oil industry dedicated to producing liquid biofuels holds tremendous economic potential, but has potentially devastating environmental and social effects. What do you think? Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?
Last edited by Ferretlover on Mon 09 Jan 2012, 19:58:54, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Palm Oil Thread.
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Re: Big Palm Oil Debate: Past the Peak for Tropical Countrie

Unread postby waegari » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 12:35:52

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to forget to take into account the use of pesticides (which is oil). Check <i>Down to Earth No. 66, August 2005</i>; Pesticide use in oil palm plantations.
In his keynote speech to the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil, October 2004, the then Indonesian agriculture minister, Bungaran Saragih, admitted the dangers of herbicides use in oil palm plantations(1). Around 25 different pesticides are used in oil palm plantations, but monitoring is difficult due to lack of control and documentation(2).


and:

In addition to concerns about the health and safety of plantation workers, there are issues about water pollution associated with paraquat and glyphosate. Manufacturers claim that both chemicals are harmless to people and wildlife after spraying as they are rapidly absorbed by plants and inactivated by contact with the soil. However, in parts of Indonesia where the rainfall is often very high, herbicides can be washed into streams and rivers which provide the only source of water for all household needs - including drinking - for villages around the plantations. Furthermore, the herbicides do not bind to sandy soils.


Of course, this article does not mention the fact that you'll be using a carbon based product for the cultivation of a product which is meant to be used as carbon replacement. And of course, those pesticides need to be produced and transported first, too. Which means oil.

One more problem: the use of palm oil as a replacement of crude will have to compete with the use of palm oil for the food industry, a factor which currently is already putting a strain on palm oil prices.

So these factors have to be taken into account too.
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Re: Big Palm Oil Debate: Past the Peak for Tropical Countrie

Unread postby lorenzo » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 12:45:23

waegari wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to forget to take into account the use of pesticides (which is oil).


Yes, good point. Of course, the development of biopesticides is a possible route. But say you need petro-pesticides, then we have a small problem.
And it has serious environmental and health effects.

waegari wrote:Of course, this article does not mention the fact that you'll be using a carbon based product for the cultivation of a product which is meant to be used as carbon replacement. And of course, those pesticides need to be produced and transported first, too. Which means oil.


Yep, but your input of petro-pesticides and fertilizer is many times smaller than the output of palm oil. So you may want to use a fraction of costly oil, to produce a vast amount of much cheaper palm oil which can be used as liquid biofuel.

To transport he palm oil, you use diesel trucks that work on pure palm oil (or palm biodiesel).

waegari wrote:One more problem: the use of palm oil as a replacement of crude will have to compete with the use of palm oil for the food industry, a factor which currently is already putting a strain on palm oil prices.


Well, this means palm oil prices go up! So that's a very good thing for the producers.
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Re: Big Palm Oil Debate: Past the Peak for Tropical Countrie

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 12:58:20

Simple unequivical no.

And for all you technocrats and cornucopeans in this thread to follow--think of palm trees as munitions and orangatans, leopards, native cultures etc. as Iraqis. We bring modern dreams, toys, and weapons to the poor and defenseless masses (for their own good of course) and destroy them and (possibly for the short term) enrich ourselves.

So please spare me. I don't want to hear an upbeat and positive assessment of the caloric potential, economic tradeoffs, and eroei equations of this wonderous new technology. I want to hear you tell me that you have sold your car, eat only organic foods, wipe your ass twice with toilet paper, and reuse plastic grocery bags. okay?

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Re: Big Palm Oil Debate: Past the Peak for Tropical Countrie

Unread postby lorenzo » Sun 06 Nov 2005, 14:29:18

pstarr wrote:Simple unequivical no.

And for all you technocrats and cornucopeans in this thread to follow--think of palm trees as munitions and orangatans, leopards, native cultures etc. as Iraqis. We bring modern dreams, toys, and weapons to the poor and defenseless masses (for their own good of course) and destroy them and (possibly for the short term) enrich ourselves.

So please spare me. I don't want to hear an upbeat and positive assessment of the caloric potential, economic tradeoffs, and eroei equations of this wonderous new technology. I want to hear you tell me that you have sold your car, eat only organic foods, wipe your ass twice with toilet paper, and reuse plastic grocery bags. okay?

pete


Hi pete, that's a very clear point of view!

Do you think you can convince the people of Central Africa with your discourse? All I hear coming from many of them, is that they want a cell phone, a car, two fridges, airco, travel abroad, live in an apartment, have two TVs, eat nice fat and sugary food, drink lots of coke, spend money on clothes and want to go shop in megastores each weekend.

In other words, how can we people from the luxurious Western world, who used up all cheap oil which allowed us to develop, convince the poor Africans that preserving the integrity of their eco-systems is in their own immediate interest, when the temptation of making money by destroying them is there at the very same time?
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Re: Big Palm Oil Debate: Past the Peak for Tropical Countrie

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 07 Nov 2005, 02:43:35

lorenzo wrote:
pstarr wrote:Simple unequivical no.

And for all you technocrats and cornucopeans in this thread to follow--think of palm trees as munitions and orangatans, leopards, native cultures etc. as Iraqis. We bring modern dreams, toys, and weapons to the poor and defenseless masses (for their own good of course) and destroy them and (possibly for the short term) enrich ourselves.

So please spare me. I don't want to hear an upbeat and positive assessment of the caloric potential, economic tradeoffs, and eroei equations of this wonderous new technology. I want to hear you tell me that you have sold your car, eat only organic foods, wipe your ass twice with toilet paper, and reuse plastic grocery bags. okay?

pete


Hi pete, that's a very clear point of view!

Do you think you can convince the people of Central Africa with your discourse? All I hear coming from many of them, is that they want a cell phone, a car, two fridges, airco, travel abroad, live in an apartment, have two TVs, eat nice fat and sugary food, drink lots of coke, spend money on clothes and want to go shop in megastores each weekend.

In other words, how can we people from the luxurious Western world, who used up all cheap oil which allowed us to develop, convince the poor Africans that preserving the integrity of their eco-systems is in their own immediate interest, when the temptation of making money by destroying them is there at the very same time?


because as usual it won't be the people of Central Africa who will benefit but the rich white Western investors and the corrupt local officials.
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THE Palm Oil Thread (merged)

Unread postby nth » Tue 15 Nov 2005, 15:18:05

The Washington Post, Nov 2, 2005 Wed., Final Edition, SECTION: A Section; A15
HEADLINE: Shaking Money From Borneo's Trees; Indonesian Plan for Huge Palm Oil Plantation Riles Environmentalists BYLINE: Ellen Nakashima, Washington Post Foreign Service
BETUNG KERIHUN NATIONAL PARK, Indonesia:
A river the color of pale toffee coursed through a valley, carrying several types of rare fish. A young orangutan, a member of a threatened species, dangled merrily by one leg from a tree. In the heart of Borneo, home to one of the world's last remaining expanses of intact rain forest, Hermas Rintik Maring, an avid conservationist who is native to the area, marveled at the life within the vast canopies of jungle green that for centuries have made this tropical island vital to the health of the region.

At the same time, he said, he fears this pristine forest could fall to the whine of chainsaws and the rumble of bulldozers clearing land for what has been billed as the world's largest palm oil plantation. The project, brokered by the Indonesian government in Jakarta, could affect as many as 5 million acres of Borneo's forest -- an area slightly smaller than the state of Vermont -- near Indonesia's 1,250-mile-long border with Malaysia. Officials hope China will finance the project on the island, which is divided between Indonesia and Malaysia.

Indonesian officials claim the plantation could bring the area a half a million jobs directly related to the industry and 500,000 more in spin-off jobs in schools, health care and other services. It could produce more than 10 million tons of crude palm oil a year, they said, worth about $4.6 billion. Chinese officials said a project covering 5 million acres could cost up to $10 billion.

But environmentalists such as Hermas, 28, a field officer for the Worldwide Fund for Nature in Indonesia, worry that without careful planning the project could destroy Borneo's profusion of plants, insects and animals. "It would be one of man's great mistakes," said Hermas, his eyes sweeping across a panorama of olive-colored forests and blue-gray mountains from a clearing 1,800 feet high. "It would be unforgivable."

The plan is still in its infancy. It envisions a series of large plantations owned by private companies and linked by roads and palm oil mills. Exactly where everything would go has not been decided. That lack of clarity has prompted growing controversy. Palm oil, used in the age of the Egyptian pharaohs, is fast becoming one of the world's leading vegetable oils. The antioxidant-rich oil, squeezed from a reddish fruit about the size of a large plum, is used in products as diverse as chocolate, potato chips, detergent and lipstick. It is now being touted as a bio-fuel -- a clean alternative fuel -- as crude oil prices soar.

Malaysia, Indonesia's more prosperous neighbor to the north, is the world's number one producer. But if the project here proceeds as the government hopes, Indonesia will surpass it. "Indonesia is lucky that God gave it a good place to build palm oil plantations," said Raden Pardede, a senior adviser to the Economic Affairs Ministry who is working on the project. Earlier this year, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono visited East and West Kalimantan, two Indonesian provinces on Borneo that border the Malaysian part of the island. He met with governors and mayors, who appealed for roads, jobs and resources to combat rampant illegal logging.

Yudhoyono, a retired general and former security minister, has long wanted to bring investment to the border area. "Security and stability will be better," he told Tempo, an Indonesian newsmagazine, in an August interview. "Palm oil and agricultural cultivation will raise incomes, absorb the workforce and increase regional taxes. Meanwhile, we will be able to keep on nurturing the sense of nationhood and being Indonesian."

On a state visit to Beijing in July, he spoke to President Hu Jintao about helping to develop the border area. "So far, the feedback has been positive," Yudhoyono said. Chinese officials are more circumspect. "We are proceeding very cautiously," a bank official in Beijing who is tracking the project said on condition of anonymity.

The Chinese said that though their government is generally keen to invest in Indonesia, especially in oil, natural gas, minerals and infrastructure, agricultural projects such as palm oil plantations require careful study. Environmental concerns, competing land claims and conflicting viewpoints of local governments could slow progress, said Tan Weiwen, economic and commercial counselor at the Chinese Embassy in Jakarta.

But, he said, he sees opportunity in a growing demand for palm oil in China, the world's third-largest importer of the commodity, and the world at large. "Where there is sugar," he said, "the ants will come." Indonesian officials said they would conduct an in-depth feasibility study next year that will weigh environmental, social, economic and security costs and benefits. "Basically the idea is to increase the well-being of the people along the border," said Pardede, the adviser. He said that he expected the project would safeguard wildlife. "We don't want to build in protected areas," he said.

He has heard the objections of environmentalists, who cited research showing that oil palms do not thrive above 670 feet. The forests near the border rise like cathedrals on mountains with elevations of 1,000 to 6,500 feet. The area that environmentalists call the heart of Borneo is home to 14 of the island's 16 major rivers. Six miles downstream from Betung Kerihun is Danau Sentarum, a 325,000-acre necklace of lakes that nurture several species found only on Borneo, including the bekantan monkey and arwana fish. Indigenous peoples live and fish on the lakes. Logging the forests will start a chain reaction of erosion and silt buildup that will destroy the area's water ecosystem, environmentalists say.

At least one plan, drawn up by a consortium of state-owned palm oil plantations and obtained by the Worldwide Fund for Nature, shows plantations being built in three national parks near the border, including Betung Kerihun and Danau Sentarum. Pardede dismissed that plan as unworkable. But environmentalists are taking no chances. Many local officials, they noted, are eager to see jobs coming their way.

The environmentalists are concerned that under the guise of planting oil palms, companies will raze the forests, removing billions of dollars' worth of timber, and then abandon the land. Too often over the last decade in Indonesia, that scenario has played out. According to the Forestry Ministry, 5.75 million acres of forest in Indonesian Borneo alone have been cleared for palm oil plantations that never materialized. Most of that land is at a lower altitude.

If the government wants to promote oil palm plantations, "Why not use that land?" asked Hermas, the conservationist. On a recent day, Hermas motored four hours up the Embaloh River in a wooden longboat, past trees wearing fern garlands like feather boas. At a small clearing, he stepped lithely out of the boat, and he and several colleagues began to climb. With each step came a new vista. Sunlight dappled the forest floor, illuminating mushrooms, fern tendrils and giant ants skittering across twigs.

"This is orangutan habitat," he said, moving up steep slopes and whacking vines with a machete. He peered up at an abandoned orangutan nest, some 100 feet high in a tree. A decade ago, an estimated 100,000 orangutans frolicked in Borneo's forests; today there are only 55,000. Palm oil plantations are the main reason for the decline, according to Friends of the Earth, an international environmental group. The industry could drive the ape to extinction within 12 years, the group warned.

Hermas is one of Borneo's indigenous Dayaks. Dayaks do not know how to grow palm oil, which the Dutch introduced to Indonesia in the late 1800s. He worried that if plantations are built, workers from other parts of Indonesia will take most of the jobs, creating social conflicts. Hermas was raised in a forest culture and now lives in a communal Dayak longhouse in a town that is hours away by boat and motorbike. On a recent walk, he paused to hear a peacock cooing. He noted dainty white orchids with lavender tips, a new species discovered several years ago. "The forest," he said, "is a genetic bank."

His parents trapped wild boar, he said. They showed him how to find edible rattan shoots. With his machete, he hacked a robust liana vine two inches in diameter, releasing a liquid that was cool and clear, like pure water. He held the bamboo-like tube to his mouth and took a deep swallow. "We can survive in the jungle," he said. "We can eat young leaves. We can get water from the liana. Everything can be eaten here."

This cultural heritage is at risk, he said. "I, my grandparents, used to be in the jungle," he said. "We used many sources of the jungle. But if someday the jungle changes to palm oil, what can we do?"

I have no idea if you guys have seen this?
Last edited by Ferretlover on Tue 24 Mar 2009, 13:25:24, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merge thread.
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Re: Big Palm Oil Debate: Past the Peak for Tropical Countrie

Unread postby palm_oiler » Mon 08 May 2006, 01:55:35

lorenzo wrote:
Hi pete, that's a very clear point of view!

Do you think you can convince the people of Central Africa with your discourse? All I hear coming from many of them, is that they want a cell phone, a car, two fridges, airco, travel abroad, live in an apartment, have two TVs, eat nice fat and sugary food, drink lots of coke, spend money on clothes and want to go shop in megastores each weekend.

In other words, how can we people from the luxurious Western world, who used up all cheap oil which allowed us to develop, convince the poor Africans that preserving the integrity of their eco-systems is in their own immediate interest, when the temptation of making money by destroying them is there at the very same time?


Listen to yourselves everybody! You guys are talking about the extinction of orang-utan and othe animals, about the biodiversity and stuff... I mean, we all live in the same world. Why are countries that wanted to do palm oil as their alternative source of income are being questioned? I mean, WHY in the freakin' world would they be the only one that needs to keep their forest? Let millions starve so YOU who seats in the comfort of your luxury home, breathe the same oxygen without going through starvation and poor standards of living? A sane mind would definitely conclude that this is not fair.

Plus, palm oil is the most efficient comodity where per hactre return is more than any other comodity. All countries has their environment act and as long as that is preserved, then we shouldnt worry a thing.

Dont be selfish
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ETHANOL AND PALM OIL

Unread postby grabby » Wed 10 May 2006, 06:31:59

[revised] For those who hate to read I put the synopsis here: to save the world and provide all our oil needs we need to build a 3 billion acre plantation with 3 million processing plants if Palm Oil will replace our needs. Palm oil is like wax (crisco) and can only be ADDED to diesel anyway up to a few percent so this could help, but it won't run as diesel and reprocessing would be needed so multiply this by 200-300 percent (ergo) 10 billion acres and 10 million processing plants.
forget biofuels. Lets stop burning up our food and our planet ok?
________________________

THE NUBBIN of the arguement.

I had a nice post earlier that I can't find, discussing the feasability of making palm oil plantations to produce diesel. I can't find it so I will just make a basic thread we can point to each time someone gets the idea to make palm oil plantations to save Amrica.

Here is the first post on what it takes to make and run a basic tropical palm oil plantation. Remember, Palm oil is almost a wax and would be processed as an INGREDIENT in diesel, it is too thick to run directly, it is almost a wax.. (Think of crisco)

nice website wrote:MPOB is investing 10.5 million dollars in a plant, according to Plantation Industries and Commodities Minister Datuk Peter Chin Fah Kui. Expected to be compleated in three years, the plant will produce 5,000 tonnes (approximately 36.5 thousand barrels or 1.15 million gallons) of biodiesel a month. The Biodiesel is slated for export to Europe. Port Dickerson, also in the state of Negeri Sembilan, is a major oil terminal and site of the largest refinery in the country (Port Dickerson). Chin said the fuel could not be used in Malaysia as the existing infrastructure of the major Oil Companies in the country to blend the biodiesel with Petroleum diesel was insufficient. The companies would have to work together with MPOB and Golden Hope Plantations to develop the INFRASTRUCTURE, he said, adding that there weren't any legal provisions for the alternative fuel in the country at the moment.


another site wrote:Palm oil is increasingly being looked to as a feedstock for Biodiesel production, and some analysts are bullish on the MARKET PROSPECTS FOR MALAYSIA (not necessarily on diesel production)
Guthrie owns and operates 55 oil palm estates in Malaysia, totalling 104,749 hectares and 14 palm m palm oil mills, with the bulk of the palm oil estates located in Peninsular Malaysia while three oil palm estates totalling 4,498 hectares are in Sabeh Sabah.
In Indonesia, Guthries owns and operates 53 plantation estates and 14 palm oil mills in Indonesia through PT minamas Gemilang, PT Anugerah Sumbermakmur and PT Guthrie Pecconina Indonesia.



These are the basics of a real functioning palm oil estate owned by a multi-million dollar plantation owner, in a tropical country, who does not even have enough clout to get a law passed in his own country to change the laws enough to use the palm oil for diesel.
(Politics Vs. Business vs. Big Oil)

Ok fine.
Last edited by grabby on Wed 10 May 2006, 07:01:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ETHANOL AND PALM OIL

Unread postby grabby » Wed 10 May 2006, 06:57:31

Now here are the numbers:

There are 55 oil palm estates in Malaysia, Palm oil being the richest fuel producer per acre i the world of any biocrop, better than ethanol even.

Acres totalling 104,749 hectares and let us take a certain area of high productivity.

14 palm palm oil mills are needed to process the palm oil from these hectares..

This is an example of how we will try to save the world.
with the bulk of the palm oil estates located in PRIME Palm oil growing property where it rains. - Peninsular Malaysia

Now to evaluate:
while three oil palm estates totalling 4,498 hectares (10,000 acres)are in Sabah. Malaysia. Production is 11 tonnes Palm oil per hectare. Which is very good ok? Lets multiply this prime biofuel estate and see how many we will need to save America.

346,346 Barrels per year over 4,498 hectares (10,000 acres )for three plantations and three processing plants.

THIS IS A FACT AND AS GOOD AS IT GETS THERE IS NO ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS.

Multply this by three to get:
1 million barrels per YEAR over 30,000 acres for 30 processing plants, and 30 plantations. This is 2,700 Barrels per day.

Multily these by ten:
for 27,000 barrels per day we need 300,000 Acres and 300 processing plants and 300 plantations.

Multiply these by ten:
for 270,000 barrels per day we need 3,000,000 Acres and 3000 processing plants and 3000 plantaions

Multiply these by ten:
for 2,700,000 Barrels per day we need 30,000,000 Acres and 30,000 processing plants and 30,000 plantations.

Multiply these by ten:
for 27,000,000 Barrels per day (ENOUGH TO SAVE AMRICA!)
We use 21,000,000 (MILLION) barrels per day, we sustain some loss in palm oil to convert so lets call it good.

We need 300,000,000 MILLION Primo rainforest farmable acres in a tropical rain zone (not in the hills either),
and 300,000 Processing plants and 300,000 plantations.

You think we can build 300,000 processing plants in ten years to save America?
I don't.
You think we can kick everyone off their property in the tropics and grab 300,000,000 PRIME FARMABLE ACRES FROM THEM FREE?
I don't


Okl lets save the world now
Multiply by three.:
To save the world we need 100,000,000 barrels per day and 3 BILLION ACRES of PRIME TROPICAL FLAT FARMLAND in a TROPICAL RAINFOREST CLIMATE, and 3 MILLION processing plants and 3 MILLION PLANTATIONS.

This is what it would take to SUSTAIN OUR LIFESTYLE.


Ok it is not doable, with the best biological crop in the world situated in the best Biological climate in the world.
Not a chance. No way no how.

But that isn't the WORST OF IT!
WE CAN'T EVEN PRODUCE ENOUGH BIOFUEL TO MAKE UP OUR YEARLY INCREASE IN FUEL CONSUMPTIONS!

How much BIOPALMDIESEL will we need to overcome our Amricas INCREASED needs from this year to next year?

In other words, we want to HOLD our IMPORTING of fuel to what it is today, and supply any INCREASING needs with Biopamlmdiesel?

we would need to build 30,000 plantations a year just to supply our INCREASED NEEDS over the next two years.

You do not understand the numbers if youn think biofuels will make anny appreciable difference much less help us get off foreign oils.

BIOFUELS CANT EVEN KEEP UP!

Biofuels SOUNDS good but is a waste of time.
It will not stop the crash, it will jsut make a few local people have biodiesel.

I

So it will be clear why you should just stop worrying about any Bio saving factor. It is miniscule and useless. Ethanols numbers are WORSE THAN THIS!
Much much worse.

to supply all the ethanol for the world you would have to have
4 billion bushel baskets of fresh cut lawn clippings a DAY!
that is 200,BILLION POUNDS A DAY.

1,700 Trains of max load.

stack them up they reach 127 million miles
a DAY
they go around the world 24 times if you stack them side by side.

biofuels cannot make any SIGNIFICANT CHANGE


No, we could not all just have our local biofuel plant and survive. we dont have enough energy to make the ethanol and to process the copra.

R.I.P. BIOFUELS.

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Adding these words so you can find this post again on a search:
KEYWORDS: 123456789 987654321 fast finder.
Xcellent post on Palm Oil keywords BIODIESEL ETHANOL FORGEDABOUDIT, PLANTATIONS STOP WASTING< BIOFUELS WILL NOT SAVE US, NUCLEAR WILL NOT SAVE US, RAPE SEED WILL NOT SAVE US, COWS WONT SAVE US, WHALE BLUBBER WON't SAVE US, BURNING CORN PELLETS IN A STOVE WILL NOT SAVE US, TECHNOLOGY WON'T SAVE US, WE GOTTA CUT BACK, WE GOTTA STOP BURNING THIS PLANET UP!, WE AREN't GONNA STOP ARE WE.
sheesh. ULTIMATE BIOFUEL REBUTAL.
Last edited by grabby on Wed 17 May 2006, 04:26:56, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: ETHANOL AND PALM OIL

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 10 May 2006, 10:16:54

Thanks Grabby,

I sort of did something similar in the Mother of Biofuels Debate thread. I analyzed Pimentel and Patzek's work on ethanol and crop oils energy returns. I was hoping that the debate would remain focused there as that seemed to be the intent of the this site's managers. It was definately worthwhile but people like Lorenzo have their own agendas that do not match everyone elses.

You have created a useful reference for everyone and I will use it with relish . . . and raw meat . . . when necessary :twisted:
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Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out orangut

Unread postby Jack » Tue 23 May 2006, 14:36:57

The demand for a cheap ingredient found in thousands of products, from shampoo to biscuits, is contributing to the extinction of the orangutan, warn conservationists. One in 10 mass-produced foods on Britain's shelves is estimated to contain palm oil, a bulking agent and preservative, but supermarkets and food manufacturers have been accused of doing too little to ensure their supplies are not threatening forests that are vital to the survival of Asia's only great ape.


Link to complete article here

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Note the consequences of palm oil even without using it as
a biofuel. Now consider the impact as we convert more of the
planet to monoculture agriculture in an effort to produce more
biofuels.

Does the term "burnt out cinder" come to mind? 8)

How about "dieoff"?
Last edited by Ferretlover on Tue 24 Mar 2009, 13:27:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged with THE Palm Oil Thread.
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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby markam » Tue 23 May 2006, 14:42:26

Any comments Lorenzo???????
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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 23 May 2006, 14:45:55

He's already mentioned several times that he just doesn't care.
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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 23 May 2006, 15:07:14

Lorenzo seems to think his biofuel investments will somehow spark a socialist workers paradise.

I can see it: monotonous biofuels plantations as far as the eye can see. Interspersed with row after row of worker highrises and cubicles. Paradise :P
Yikes!
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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby holmes » Tue 23 May 2006, 15:36:36

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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby Zardoz » Tue 23 May 2006, 15:43:09

And they laugh at us for being apocalyptic, depressed, doom-and-gloom, slash-our-wrists, hyper-negative prophets of death and destruction!

God Almighty, how can you be any other way if you've got even a trace of a clue about what is really going on? This is getting more ridiculous with each passing day!

Lovelock is right, and we deserve what we're going to get!
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby holmes » Tue 23 May 2006, 16:33:29

fk em. cut off their life blood sooner the better. I want piles of borg corpses. I want the stench to be unbearable. Only then will there be a chance for a better day.
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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby NeoPeasant » Tue 23 May 2006, 19:11:47

In our inexorable march to self induced extinction, we will take every other large animal with us. If we don't displace it out of existence, we will end up hunting it for food. The ones that survive humanity will be the ones too small to hunt with a positive EROEI.

The small rodents will survive us. "The meek shall inherit the earth" was probably just a mis-translation of "The mink shall inherit the earth"
The battle to preserve our lifestyle has already been lost. The battle to preserve our lives is just beginning.
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Re: Shoppers' thirst for palm oil threatens to wipe out oran

Unread postby eric_b » Tue 23 May 2006, 20:18:56

NeoPeasant wrote:In our inexorable march to self induced extinction, we will take every other large animal with us. If we don't displace it out of existence, we will end up hunting it for food. The ones that survive humanity will be the ones too small to hunt with a positive EROEI.

The small rodents will survive us. "The meek shall inherit the earth" was probably just a mis-translation of "The mink shall inherit the earth"


Ironic when you consider that humans and primates are descended
from rodent like nocturnal creatures that padded quietly about
at night during the long reign of the dinosaurs. After surviving the
last great extinction these little critters were then able to branch
out into newly opened and vacant niches.

Perhaps this process will repeat itself after humanity burns itself
and good chunk of the biosphere out.

Yup, those dinos were genetically prime. They ruled for millions
upon millions of years. The human condition is one of genetic
degeneracy and it will amount to little more than an insignificant
blip in the history of this planet.

{edit: If the last great extinction was indeed caused by a humungous
meteor impact (quite possible) this would lend credence to my
theory. It's only by a fortunate stroke of luck that humanity was
allowed to flourish. It would appear we don't have what it takes
to make it long term, unfortunately, as we are rapidly heading
towards extinction, and we'll take many other species with us.
So enjoy every moment as our existence is more rare and precious
than you can possibly imagine }
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