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World Facing a Potential Triple Whammy

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

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World Facing a Potential Triple Whammy

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 16:52:00

The Perfect Storm? The first article in this link is quite sobering.

All this finds an unbalanced world facing a potential triple whammy — an increasingly vulnerable American consumer on the demand side, mounting pressures on the Chinese producer on the supply side, and heightened risks of an oil shock. Lacking in alternative growth engines and now facing the risks of a shock, financial markets have good reason to sound the alarm for another growth alert. The search for growth could face a serious disappointment in 2005.


http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/di ... ml#anchor0
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Unread postby HUT » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 20:02:51

It seems that everybody is starting to see the danger of increased oil prise and looming coming shortage. I heard that both presidential canditates Bush and Kerry promised a tax break for those cars that consume less fuel. They both seem to realise that US heavy dependence on foreign oil cannot go on for a very long time. Higher oil price means higher rate of capital flow out from US.
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Unread postby backstop » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 21:09:37

Monte - the sheer number of items with potential to trigger the coming slide is weird.

One that I've seen, once, hasn't yet been covered on this site (and is rarely recognized elsewhere) is a severe weather impact occurring in untimely manner.

On the night of Thursday October 15th, 1987, a 250yr storm came ashore in S. England at 10.30 pm. It was heading NE, and was gone off the E coast by 5am next morning. 4ft oaks were plucked out of the ground, spun, and layed down 20yds away. 4 MT of trunks were thrown (plus root plates & crowns) pretty much closing the roads over large areas.

London got the fringe of it and was a mess, but working. The Stock Exchange opened as usual, and then closed after 15 mins, as it was realized that only a handful of brokers were able to commute. The rest were stuck in their smart country homes.

It was the first working day lost in the Exchange since the hight of the Blitz.

The timing was unfortunate as there had been really bad falls in both New York & Tokio Exchanges on Thursday, to which London couldn't respond, that were followed by worse falls in both exchanges on the Friday.

Come Monday morning, the London brokers were in, knowing they had just a few hours to get their prices down to cover 4 bad sessions before New York opened. They dumped their stocks in panic.

When New York and then Tokio opened, they took their lead from London, and panicked. There was £60Bn wiped off UK shares that day, which became known as the crash of '87.

What the storm did was to convert an overpriced market, whose brokers knew it needed a serious correction, into a chaotic collapse of confidence causing a full-blown global share-price crash.

The stom's timing may seem like a very far chance in itself, and an even further chance of there being a repeat - lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place - but, given that hurricane Jeanne has chosen to follow a near identical path into Florida as Frances a month ago, this folk legend may not be applicable.

To get to the point of this over-long post, with a system stressed by so many different factors, together with the profound cultural shock of increasingly open professional discussion of impending peak oil, I suggest that it could be any one of a number of pretty random factors that triggers a sudden collapse of confidence in the status quo.

In that event, the last normal day's production would very likely be Peak Oil, as a few years of recession would further deplete oil stocks before global demand recovered (if it recovered), allowing only a reduced maximum daily supply. Thus Peak Oil would have been caused not by military action or politicking over the oil fields, but by a loss of confidence in an elite cadre of the system's financial management.

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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 22:06:56

Backstop quote:
In that event, the last normal day's production would very likely be Peak Oil, as a few years of recession would further deplete oil stocks before global demand recovered (if it recovered), allowing only a reduced maximum daily supply. Thus Peak Oil would have been caused not by military action or politicking over the oil fields, but by a loss of confidence in an elite cadre of the system's financial management.


We are threading on very thin ice. Can you imagine the displacement in a post-peak world of trying to rebuild infrastructure following a hurricane? Who could afford the costs?

I didn't quite follow your train of thought in the above quote. Do you mean the fall-out of the reality of PO would trigger the collaspe before real peak-oil got here?
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Unread postby backstop » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 22:28:44

Monte - Not quite. Rather I mean that Peak Oil may be the time of a collapse of market confidence resulting from an already stressed system being struck by an apparently random and unexpected impact.

The brokers' emerging concern over impending peak (2005 to 2012 ?) would be one of various factors stressing confidence in the system, but the pivotal event which ends expansion (economic growth) may be apparently unrelated to oil supplies.

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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 22:37:33

backstop wrote:Monte - Not quite. Rather I mean that Peak Oil may be the time of a collapse of market confidence resulting from an already stressed system being struck by an apparently random and unexpected impact.

The brokers' emerging concern over impending peak (2005 to 2012 ?) would be one of various factors stressing confidence in the system, but the pivotal event which ends expansion (economic growth) may be apparently unrelated to oil supplies.

regards,

Backstop


Oh, I agree completely! And here comes the next question; what will the demand destruction of a severe recession or depression do to the peak-oil timetable? Just postpone it? Ignite a crash course in renewables? Or military invasion to secure more oil?
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Unread postby backstop » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 22:54:25

Monte - I think the key variable governing all of the possibilities you mention is the long awaited agreement of a Treaty of the Atmospheric Commons.

When it is acheived, and many governments know and privately admit that its a prerequisite to society's survival, it will govern the fossil fuel emissions (and thus consumption) of each nation, with a carbon trading system to balance demand for allocation globally. Its aim is to reduce over time the global carbon emissions to a sustainable level while facilitating sustainable development.

V. large subject which the above doesn't begin to do justice to. If you haven't already, have a squiz at

www.gci.org.uk

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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 23:10:00

Cool link! Thanks! Guess that means Bush rally needs to go since they have systematically ignored and canceled most treaties, especially Kyoto.
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Re: World Facing a Potential Triple Whammy

Unread postby Jack » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 23:26:09

MonteQuest wrote:The Perfect Storm? The first article in this link is quite sobering.



And that ignores the global food problem - each year, grain stocks end up a little lower. Now what happens when Peak Oil combines with an already inadequate food supply?

Global warming might interfere with snow in the western U.S., would could reduce grain production to an even greater extent.

Interesting times coming, I do believe.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sat 25 Sep 2004, 23:41:26

Global warming might interfere with snow in the western U.S., would could reduce grain production to an even greater extent.


Yes, there are already concerns about that. Lake Powell has 9 MAF behind the dam right now. At full pool it is 27 MAF. 8.5 MAF must flow out of the dam each year to meet downstream treaty obilgations. Couple more drought years and it's all she wrote. Like peak-oil, no spare capacity.
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Unread postby Colorado-Valley » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 01:12:19

Monte, you're really into all this aren't you?

Me too. I'm 50 years old and I've NEVER seen the world in such a tenuous condition. If you get the chance, try to see "The End of Suburbia." It really helps to focus the mind.

My best hope is that we downpower to what James Kuntzler calls "yardsale nation." We survive on local economies and recycle all the junk that was made in the 20th Century.

Do you ever wonder if the Russians, Chinese and Europeans are having their own private discussions on what to do about the U.S., which they undoubtably see as a deeply dysfunctional and dangerous nation?

They could easily toast our economy if they decide to.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 01:31:31

Colorado-Valley wrote:Monte, you're really into all this aren't you?

Me too. I'm 50 years old and I've NEVER seen the world in such a tenuous condition. If you get the chance, try to see "The End of Suburbia." It really helps to focus the mind.

My best hope is that we downpower to what James Kuntzler calls "yardsale nation." We survive on local economies and recycle all the junk that was made in the 20th Century.

Do you ever wonder if the Russians, Chinese and Europeans are having their own private discussions on what to do about the U.S., which they undoubtably see as a deeply dysfunctional and dangerous nation?

They could easily toast our economy if they decide to.


Yes, been involved for years. Have you read my post on the Perfect Storm? http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1514.html

I'm 53. Is the End of Suburbia available on DVD? Yes, power down would be the best choice, but I think it won't happen. I kind of expect chaos. If China toasts our economy, they toast theirs as well, in this day and age of globalization.
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Unread postby MrPC » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 01:59:37

MonteQuest wrote:If China toasts our economy, they toast theirs as well, in this day and age of globalization.


I'm not so sure about that.. There are plenty of Chinese who would probably love to own cheap but marketable appliances, clothing, footwear and electronics.. And they would still get export revenues from all their other trading partners..
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 02:10:28

MrPC wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:If China toasts our economy, they toast theirs as well, in this day and age of globalization.


I'm not so sure about that.. There are plenty of Chinese who would probably love to own cheap but marketable appliances, clothing, footwear and electronics.. And they would still get export revenues from all their other trading partners..


You aren't? We owe the world $3.7 trillion dollars in their borrowed savings. If somebody owed you that kind of money, would you want to shut down their business? We are the world's consumer. Pop our ballon and the rest of the world crashes. We have nothing the Chinese want to buy anyway except Disneyland. Read my post here:

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic1545.html
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Unread postby Jack » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 08:36:12

MonteQuest wrote:I'm 53. Is the End of Suburbia available on DVD?


Yes! I got a copy, and it's excellent. Suitable for sharing with friends...
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Unread postby MrPC » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 08:45:02

MonteQuest wrote:You aren't? We owe the world $3.7 trillion dollars in their borrowed savings. If somebody owed you that kind of money, would you want to shut down their business? We are the world's consumer. Pop our ballon and the rest of the world crashes.


That will happen anyway whether intentionally or otherwise.

However, when all is said and done, the US has little of value left to offer the world's creditors or consumers, so I doubt that it will be able to claw its way back up after the crash but before the global transportation system collapses post peak.
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Unread postby Jack » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 09:24:36

MrPC wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:You aren't? We owe the world $3.7 trillion dollars in their borrowed savings. If somebody owed you that kind of money, would you want to shut down their business? We are the world's consumer. Pop our ballon and the rest of the world crashes.


That will happen anyway whether intentionally or otherwise.

However, when all is said and done, the US has little of value left to offer the world's creditors or consumers, so I doubt that it will be able to claw its way back up after the crash but before the global transportation system collapses post peak.


There's an old saying: "If you owe the bank a little money, the bank owns you. But if you owe the bank a lot of money, you own the bank."

Keep in mind that the U.S. can repudiate its debt. True, our economy would suffer considerable disruption. True, the creditors would howl. But a well-armed nation could not be compelled to pay. Let's face it, Russia has defaulted on a variety of loans over the years and people still line up to sell them goods.
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Unread postby DoctorDoom » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 10:43:19

MonteQuest wrote:We have nothing the Chinese want to buy anyway except Disneyland.


They're happy enough to pirate our products though - movies, software, etc.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 26 Sep 2004, 12:33:46

DoctorDoom wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:We have nothing the Chinese want to buy anyway except Disneyland.


They're happy enough to pirate our products though - movies, software, etc.


Very true! I just ran across an article on that issue:

WASHINGTON, DC - 09/25/04 - Several US House of Representatives members are railing at pirated versions of US-made goods in several countries, most notably China, that they say are costing US businesses hundreds of billions of dollars in lost revenue as well as lost jobs.


http://www.caltradereport.com/eWebPages ... 29512.html
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