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THE Country of Turkey Thread (merged)

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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby elroy » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 15:52:25

I remember reading a poll not long ago that showed most turkish have no intentions of moving to Europe, if Turkey should join the EU. They believe Turkey shows much more economic growth potential and would rather stay there and make something of it.
I don't see the problem with it really. I think the muslim aspect of Turkey is blown way out of proportion.
Regardless of Turkey joining or not, subsidies and such things will have to be changed anyway. Agriculture subsidies make up the majority of the EU budget anyway and it's getting out of control. Besides, it's unfair competition for third world nations.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby stu » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 18:18:19

That's one of the big fears-mass migration. The reality will be that Turkey will have a small economy compared to Western European ones if they eventually join. This will undoubtedly mean that you'll see loads of Turks heading West. The same thing happened when the former Soviet countries joined and it'll happen when Romania and Bulgaria join in a couple of years.

Interestingly 80% of Austrians are against Turkey joining.

So much for "time heals all wounds".
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby MrBean » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 19:00:48

spear wrote:ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ


I see that you are still fighting the barbarian hordes of Dareios and Xerxes. You know, that was before Al the Great, who also lived long time ago.

By asking membership in EU Turkey is not asking that we give our Earth and Water, but offering to share their Earth and Water with ours, under common rules. Telling Turkey to "just try take it" or to "bring it on", as Bush expressed the same sentiment, would be very insulting when only a hand of frienship is extended.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby peripato » Tue 04 Oct 2005, 21:31:33

WHY does the US and Britain support Turkey so much??
Maybe the Bosporus?Maybe Turkish western borders?Maybe the oil in the Aegean?Which is why all the disputes over the borders between Turkey and my country.Or because of the cheap labor.Maybe Im missing something here.

There were 43 invasions of Greek air space by Turkish fighter planes a few days ago when the negotiations were going bad.And dogfights.All this in one day.This is a daily thing here,one or two,but 43 is a record first.
In other words,if we dont get what we want,we terrorize you.Thats what they are saying.
And its not Greek air space only anymore,its EU air space.So they are spitting right in everyones face ALREADY.,during negotiations for ACCEPTANCE.Showing no respect for anything.
So if they do this now,what will they do later??

First Thrace with its large muslim minority, and the eastern aegean islands will be softened up for conquest by fair means or foul, then as PO takes effect by more blunt ones.

Concerning Greek national airspace, it should be noted that until 1975 – that is to say, for 44 years – Turkey never once challenged the breadth of 10 n.m. {limit} In fact, she recognized and respected it in practice.
Since 1975 however, Turkey has reversed this policy, and Turkish warplanes have regularly violated Greek national airspace on an ever increasing basis. It should be noted that, during the last three years in particular, the number of violations has sky-rocketed, not only between 6 and 10 n.m. from the Greek coast, but frequently within 6n.m., and often even over Greek island territory.

When Greece protests against these violations, Turkey typically replies that she does not consider that her aircraft flying between 6 and 10 n.m. from the Greek coasts violate Greek airspace. Greek aircraft are forced to intercept all Turkish warplanes that violate Greek national airspace.

As a consequence, Turkey's violations bring with them the daily threat of instability in the region. It is not coincidental that Turkey “discovered” her claims with respect to Greek national airspace in 1975, the year she first began to push her claims to the Aegean continental shelf in earnest. Clearly, Turkey wishes to limit Greek sovereign rights in the whole of the Aegean, in contravention of international law.

Unilateral Turkish Claims in the Aegean
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby 101 » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 00:29:07

And how long will it take until everything is organized and the new members start paying their taxes??If ever.Until then who is going to foot their bills??
The rest of us,thats who.The rest of the EU.


Has Greece not received more from the EU than it has put in?
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby peripato » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 00:47:05

101 wrote:
And how long will it take until everything is organized and the new members start paying their taxes??If ever.Until then who is going to foot their bills??
The rest of us,thats who.The rest of the EU.


Has Greece not received more from the EU than it has put in?

So what, so has Ireland and Portugal as these are designated special development regions recieving special structural funding because of the wide disparity in wealth between these countries and the rest of the EU. EU membership is not metered by the size of a country's fiscal contribution or burden.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby kevincarter » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 03:59:34

Turkey does not belong to the EU. They can be our friends, we can trade with them, have agreements and so on but it’s not part of Europe. If we open the border they will come and will bring even lower salaries, more welfare expenditure, more collapse of the medical system, more crime and so on, so what’s the good news of letting them in? We are culturally, historically and traditionally different. Their economy is growing? Good for them! :) If Turkey joins, then why not Morocco too?
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby Licho » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 08:56:48

stu wrote:That's one of the big fears-mass migration. The reality will be that Turkey will have a small economy compared to Western European ones if they eventually join. This will undoubtedly mean that you'll see loads of Turks heading West. The same thing happened when the former Soviet countries joined and it'll happen when Romania and Bulgaria join in a couple of years.

Interestingly 80% of Austrians are against Turkey joining.

So much for "time heals all wounds".


Stu, what are you talking about? Only 3 "former Soviet countries" joined EU (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) - with just few millions of people. And there is no mass emigration to the rest of EU from those or any other new countries. Most of EU countries dont allow people from new countries to work there anyway (without special permit), so situation is essentialy the same as it was before EU membership..
Main difference is that goods can travel freely and economy benefits from this.
So what makes you think that Turkey membership = mass imigration..
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby spear » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 15:07:09

The migration problem starts with free travel.when an under developed countrys citizens are allowed to travel freely,they will.Or they will try.
Since Greece is one of the neighboring countries,its more than likely many will come here first.
I dont have any documents to support this,but this is the general feeling here in my country as this issue comes up often.

Now I will try to keep this focused on the Turkey, EU issue and not make it Turkey,Greece,because it gets very complicated then.

Not many people are happy here with the GR governments support of Turkey but since we dont get the whole picture YET,its hard to make a good assessment of why they support.

Turkey must also reform in many things and ways and that will be very hard as its an Eastern culture,so the road they have in front of them is very difficult.This could take years.Brussels is making it very hard for them.
Reform means total change,not just adjusting,and not many people there will accept this easily.It takes generations.

Even though Istanbul is a cultural center now and has much to offer,Turkey dosent end or start in Istanbul,so we have to take the bad along with the good,and its probably not worth it.

And there is an old Turkish saying.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby MrBean » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 18:07:16

spear wrote:The migration problem starts with free travel.when an under developed countrys citizens are allowed to travel freely,they will.Or they will try.
Since Greece is one of the neighboring countries,its more than likely many will come here first.
I dont have any documents to support this,but this is the general feeling here in my country as this issue comes up often.


I've seen hoards of Albanian, African, Bulgarian, Romanian, Moldovan, Ukrainian, Serbian etc. immigrants in Greece, but very few Turkish compared (OK quite a few Kurds). I don't see you denying entry to EU to those other nations, only Turkey. So this seems to be a case of pure ethnic mistrust against Turks, not fear of actual immigration.


Turkey must also reform in many things and ways and that will be very hard as its an Eastern culture,so the road they have in front of them is very difficult.This could take years.Brussels is making it very hard for them.


Agreed, but also Greece was and still is Eastern Mediterranean traditionalistic culture in many aspects. I'd hate to see Greece become totally Westernized and Greek people start behaving like law-abiding work-a-holic Protestants.

Even though Istanbul is a cultural center now and has much to offer,Turkey dosent end or start in Istanbul,so we have to take the bad along with the good,and its probably not worth it.


Istanbul? I'm starting to doubt you are a real Ellinas. You would be the first Greek person to call the Polis by anything but it's real name... ;)
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby mididoctors » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 18:34:14

there is already loads of turks where i live and i have no problem with that at all


I am not sure about this internal wangling EU thing not good...

we are developing some sort of core europe outrim europe polarity with central europe states countered by a ring of more numerous states..

this has been the trend in european continental power politics for centuries..

the centre against the rim..

it also characterized the encirclement of the sov block in the cold war

I have always wondered if this is a natural macro geo-political effect of geography that manifests itself through a sort of geography=destiny thing?

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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby stu » Wed 05 Oct 2005, 19:29:53

Licho wrote:
stu wrote:That's one of the big fears-mass migration. The reality will be that Turkey will have a small economy compared to Western European ones if they eventually join. This will undoubtedly mean that you'll see loads of Turks heading West. The same thing happened when the former Soviet countries joined and it'll happen when Romania and Bulgaria join in a couple of years.

Interestingly 80% of Austrians are against Turkey joining.

So much for "time heals all wounds".


Stu, what are you talking about? Only 3 "former Soviet countries" joined EU (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) - with just few millions of people. And there is no mass emigration to the rest of EU from those or any other new countries. Most of EU countries dont allow people from new countries to work there anyway (without special permit), so situation is essentialy the same as it was before EU membership..
Main difference is that goods can travel freely and economy benefits from this.
So what makes you think that Turkey membership = mass imigration..


I guess I should have been more accurate and said Warsaw Pact countries and not Soviet Union ones.

With respect to migration I believe that if the rules that apply to the new EU member states end up applying to future members (and I see no reason why they won't) then we will see an influx of migrants who want to come West to earn a higher wage. I'm not an expert on what these rules are and what limits EU member states can set, I can only talk from experience.

Since last year I have been meeting people from Slovakia, Czech Republic and Poland. They all arrived after June 1st and they said they came here to work for a better wage. My former Polish workmate said that approximately 300,000 Poles alone were in the UK. I don't know his source but if that were true it would be astonishing.

I remember seeing on the news last year about Lithuanians buying one way tickets to the UK and the two daily flights from Vilnius being sold out two months in advance after June 1st.

I'm expecting to see an influx of Romanians in 2007 and the Turks will probably follow suit afterwards. Economic migration-Its just human nature.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby spear » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 12:51:15

Yes I admit the Greek culture is unique in the sense of it has the East West flair,and thats because until 1922 with the population exchange,when the Greeks were thrown out of their lands in Asia Minor,and the Turks here were sent back to Turkey we were a multi cultural society.
Sure some stayed,mostly in eastern Macedonia and Thrace,but that was a small number who over the years up until the present,have multiplied and grew.
Xanthi,Komotini,Alexandroupolis,and many of the surrounding villages have a very big Turkish population now.

As far as the Albanians,Romanians,and Bulgarians,I will leave them out for now and try an stay to the Turkish issue.

So back then,around World War One,we were a mixed bunch and then for decades it was just us,and now we are going back to a mixed bunch again.

The fact is that,it was OUR culture that was spreading,not theirs,and thats what was disliked,not only by Turkey,but by other international powers.

So it was decided to support Turkey for certain geopolitical gains and take OUR lands in Asia Minor and push us to where we are today.With a plan to eventually attempt to take the islands of the East Aegean,Macedonia,and Thrace,and move ELLAS below Larisa.
So the future promises a lot of interesting things for this part of the world as it is a key geopolitical location.


You are correct though MrBean in saying the word hoards or HORDES as thats what they all were and we gave them light.As history shows.
EL-LAS,in ancient sanscrit,THE ROCK THAT SHINES.

I always say to myself how easy it would be to solve the PO issue if only we remove all the Greek words from the English language.That would keep you busy for three hundred years or so.

We can start with the word PETRELEO
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby Licho » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 16:08:39

Stu - unfortunatelly UK and Ireland are ONLY countries where people from new EU coutnries can work without special permits. That's why you keep seeing them.
You won't see any more of them, only less - as situation gradually improves in home countries and as limits imposed by geographically closer countries, like Germany, Austria etc are lifted.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby stu » Thu 06 Oct 2005, 20:37:43

Good point Licho.

I forgot about that.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby spear » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 09:05:44

Apparently Turkey got a 2014 date for reevaluation or thats what I heard in a conversation yesterday.
So they have a very long road in front of them.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby kevincarter » Sat 08 Oct 2005, 12:41:56

You won't see any more of them, only less - as situation gradually improves in home countries and as limits imposed by geographically closer countries, like Germany, Austria etc are lifted.


Not that I like to be the one bringing the bad news, but the rate at what those countries will improve will be quite slow. I mean, they will improve, but what people want are UK salaries and services. And then there is a loooong way to go until Turkey reaches that.

And spear , thanks for the history lessons, I had no idea.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby stu » Sun 09 Oct 2005, 11:37:34

Turkey, Europe and the clash of civilisations

“WHAT do you gain by adding 99 per cent Muslim Turkey to the European Union?” asked Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Tayyib Erdogan last month. And then he answered his own question: “You gain a bridge between the EU and the 1.5 billion-strong Islamic world. An alliance of civilisations will start.”

You don’t have to go very far in Turkey to find people who reject Erdogan’s vision: the militant nationalist right, the radical left, religious fanatics, and people who just worry that joining the EU will slow down the country’s rapid economic growth. And you don’t have to go far in the EU to find people who are equally opposed to Turkey’s membership. But the official negotiations on Turkey’s membership nevertheless opened in Luxembourg on the night of October 3-4.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby stu » Tue 11 Oct 2005, 19:54:12

The impact that this will have on religion is going to be interesting. If Turkey does develop into a more capitalistic society will we see a society that embraces Western Ideology and slowly loosens the hold that religion has over society, or will we see a role model for other Middle Eastern countries which somehow balances secularism and capitalism.
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Re: Turkey and the EU.

Unread postby elroy » Wed 12 Oct 2005, 09:02:37

Capitalist ? I think you mean secular. I believe muslims in Turkey are more secular than muslims in the Netherlands, for what it's worth. An amusing anekdote: some colleague of my mother married a muslim man and she became a muslim as well, she started wearing the hijab n stuff like that. They went to Turkey to visit family and the female relatives pleaded with her just take off that thing, everybody's watching!
Also, in Turkey the hijab is forbidden in government and schools n places like that, in the Netherlands it isn't. We could learn a thing or two from them.
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