Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

International Hydroelectric Thread

New Hydroelectric design.

Unread postby UIUCstudent01 » Sun 08 May 2005, 01:52:02

It's not really 'new' per se as it uses our DNA structure as a template for it. The aspect of interest is that the movement of water is harnessed - you don't dam up a river. And that either direction of current is viable (attach to stationary object in the ocean, and the current provides water). Bad: It could chop up fish and the like.
Alexander's Wonderful Machine
The amount of power that could be produced from ocean currents almost defies comprehension. The currents flowing through San Francisco's Golden Gate alone, for instance, could produce an estimated 2 gigawatts per day -- more than twice what the city needs at times of peak demand. The global potential is some 3,000 gigawatts, according to the United Kingdom's Department of Trade and Industry. The agency estimates that 3 percent of that total, or 90 gigawatts, is economically recoverable using current technologies.

The article is a bit too hopeful, but it is already being implemented in Korea.
Last fall, South Korea commenced the second phase of the project, when it installed a 15-foot turbine in the strait. During this phase, it hopes to produce up to 1,000 kilowatts of power that will be sent to Jindo Island, with a population of some 40,000. If that goes well, the government plans to install thousands of Gorlov's underwater turbines, hoping they can harness from Uldolmok and the surrounding oceanic streams up to 3,600 megawatts of power -- about equal to the output of four nuclear power plants.

I believe the remaining fossil fuels should be used to subsidize the energy required to setup and maintain renewables such as this. This won't solve transportation systems, but it definitely is nice to have heat, lighting, and computers.
User avatar
UIUCstudent01
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 838
Joined: Thu 10 Mar 2005, 04:00:00

Unread postby MicroHydro » Sun 08 May 2005, 02:42:12

Humm. Worth careful study. However, I recall the failure of the helical wind turbine prototype near Los Banos, California in the 1980s. So, I undrestand the concerns about this type of design. I have more confidence about what Verdant is doing with the submerged triblade rotors in the East River.
"The world is changed... I feel it in the water... I feel it in the earth... I smell it in the air... Much that once was, is lost..." - Galadriel
User avatar
MicroHydro
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun 10 Apr 2005, 03:00:00

Unread postby pilferage » Sun 08 May 2005, 04:02:22

I wonder what enlosing them in suitable mesh structures would do to the energy available from the current?
"Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. "
User avatar
pilferage
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun 21 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Location: ~170ft/lbs@0rpm (on my bike)

Unread postby RonMN » Sun 08 May 2005, 08:07:25

Using the remaining fossile fuels to save our own asses would be the way to go! Too bad we don't seem to be doing it.

Not only on the power production side but also on the conservation side...like building underground (or heavily insulated) homes. Or building communities where everything is in walking distance.

Every day the human race seems to be making things worse by continuing in the wrong direction.
User avatar
RonMN
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2628
Joined: Fri 18 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Minnesota

Unread postby Frank » Sun 08 May 2005, 09:13:50

User avatar
Frank
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Wed 15 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Maine/Nova Scotia

Need to rant about Canadian hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby FairMaiden » Wed 07 Sep 2005, 21:16:23

Our hydro electric dams were all built and paid for by taxpayers. Within the last 2 yrs, the capital investment has been paid off and the dams are actually making money. We have enough electricity for ourselves and to sell to the US.

This year the government SOLD our hydro electric dams to US companies even tho we've been fighting it for years.

Taxpayers are so HAPPY with this government because they have a budget surplus - no doubt dummies - if I sold off my home but didn't work a day I'd have a revenue surplus. But would that be a smart move?

I'm just furious. They had already sold off our natural gas, mining & forestry companies (gov't owned)...basically we have nothing left now. This is going to be a text book somewhere as the perfect example of "short term thinking" making disasterous financial decisions!!!
User avatar
FairMaiden
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu 11 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby Macsporan » Wed 07 Sep 2005, 21:39:17

I love hydro-power: it makes feel warm inside.

It is one of the great disappointments of my life that the Green Movement, who I otherwise support for the most part, are so opposed to them.

Yes you drown a few river valleys and dispossess some small, cute furry animals as well as human beings, but then you've got several decades of clean, free power.

I love it.

I was in Tasmania during the Franklin River dispute in the early 1980s, which surely you have all heard of.

In those days I supported the Greens, but nowdays I'm beginning to believe they were wrong.

Tasmania has a coal-powered station (not good) and is now in the middle of building (last time I heard) a wood powered one. This means it's going to burn old growth forests! (complete horror)

They would have been better off with the Franklin Dam than this abomination.

I guess they were only doing what they thought was right at the time, and no one can tell how things are going to turn out in the end...but well, it was kind of short-sighted in some ways.

One things for sure, hydro-electricity is going to be very valuable when PO hits.
Last edited by Macsporan on Wed 07 Sep 2005, 21:41:43, edited 3 times in total.
Son of the Enlightenment
User avatar
Macsporan
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu 09 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Australia

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby drattom » Wed 07 Sep 2005, 21:39:43

Which government? BC, Newfoundland? I don't think it's Quebec, we can't run a surplus and if governments try to sell the dams, we would see riots everywhere.

At least it looks like you made money by selling your mines, our worst government ever(Duplessis) sold access to iron ore for 1 cent a ton for 20 years in the 50s.
User avatar
drattom
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon 27 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Montreal

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby redfire » Wed 07 Sep 2005, 21:44:42

If you look at Northern Ontario, James Bay/Hudson Bay and see the potential for hydro electric and water recycling into the Great Lakes with a distrbution of water into the US, Canada could be extremely wealthy in the future. Hydro and water are "gold mines" that last forever....

Most people are totally unaware of what we have (or may loose).....

We could have FREE Healthcare and NO taxes... it our water/hydro resources were developed properly.
User avatar
redfire
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun 07 Aug 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby drattom » Wed 07 Sep 2005, 22:14:23

I never understood why Ontario never developped the North like Quebec did. Why going to natural gas and nuclear and disregard hydro?
User avatar
drattom
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon 27 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Montreal

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby EddieB » Wed 07 Sep 2005, 22:37:20

I don't really know why Ontario opted for nuclear and gas over hydro-electric power, but could First Nations have anything to do with it?

I've visited the projects on the Le Grande river up in Quebec and came away quite torn about the whole thing. On the one hand those dams supply an incredible amount of "cleaner" energy that improves many Canadians' lives. The engineering that went into building them, especially the big one at the first falls (the name escapes me at the moment), is truly amazing. On the other hand the energy is not truly "clean" (what energy is?) since building those dams essentially wiped out the last hope of the Quebec Cree culture maintaining any kind of autonomy from the franco-phone government in Quebec City. Now they're totally dependent on aid from the government and payouts from the electric utility. Also, the fish in the Le Grande can not be consumed in any quantity do to elevated mercury in their flesh thanks to methyl mercury. The mercury levels should taper off in 100 or so years, but that's too late for the Cree...

I don't want this to sound like an all out attack on Quebec's government. God knows the US government has an atrocious record when it comes to dealing with American Indians. My point is that we need to truly listen to eachother and understand each other. I got the impression that the Cree didn't really know the magnitude of the projects being built on their lands until the bulldozers and workers arrived. Building relentlessly and pursuing the almighty dollar is what got us where we are today. Slowing down and trying to listen might just be one of the great benefits of PO...
User avatar
EddieB
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon 21 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: BA PA USA

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby FoxV » Wed 07 Sep 2005, 23:51:47

The natives protesting the James Bay project is all fine and dandy (at a time before our current energy crisis) but what gauls me about it is that the native's lawyers were being financed by the Pennsylvania coal miner's union :x

talk about being the devil's advocates.

anyways, in Canada, we have the ability to increase our hydro by 150% (and increase of our total electric production by 50%). Le Grande itself is only half of the James Bay project (building the other two dams would increase Canada's total electric generation by 15%)

So barring any manipulation from American interest groups, I hope we move forward to exploit it. It certainly sounds like a better idea than Ontario's plan to shutdown all coal plants and replace them with natural gas :roll:

edit---
not to hijack this topic into a discussion about the James Bay project, here's my original topic about it (now long dead)
Last edited by FoxV on Thu 08 Sep 2005, 00:09:08, edited 2 times in total.
Angry yet?
FoxV
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed 02 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Canada

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby drattom » Thu 08 Sep 2005, 00:04:12

They have restarted them. A new agreement was signed a the end of the 90s. They are bulding one in Eastmain and just opened a new dam in Manic area.

They look seriouly about wind power too. Last fall a group estimated that Hydro Quebec can get about 7% of its production from wind power in the north. Better idea than the natural gas plant they wanted to build last year.

We still have hospitals who heat with heating oil. Talk about blindness and stupidity.
User avatar
drattom
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon 27 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Montreal

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby FoxV » Thu 08 Sep 2005, 00:22:22

hey that's great about the James Bay dams. Although it appears they're opting for several smaller ones instead of two big ones (probably to limit eviromental damage).

The Cree probably decided that making money (I assume their deal included a royalty/dividend) was a lot better than living a natural lifestyle knee deep in black flies.

and in the end, after all the PO die-offs, the Cree will have lots of space available to return to their traditional way of life (except this time with light bulbs :lol: )
Angry yet?
FoxV
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed 02 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Canada

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby drattom » Thu 08 Sep 2005, 00:54:31

I don't find the official text and any links in english. Just to give a brief description

The new agreement(Paix des Braves) was signed on the beginning of 2002.

Hydro Quebec can develop Rupert and Eastmain river, those project will generate 1200 MW.

Crees get 70M$ for the next 48 years, better control over natural resources and thousands of jobs with Hydro Quebec.
They also drop all the lawsuits.

A lot of people think that we can be the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy with wind and hydro. I wonder if we will also get the negative effects. I better prepare to appreciate Jean 1er and welcome John Negroponte as US ambassador. :cry:
User avatar
drattom
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon 27 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Montreal

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby frankthetank » Fri 09 Sep 2005, 00:19:49

I remember watching a PBS special on the Hoover dam (I THINKS) and the lady talking towards the end made the point that sooner or later, the river will flow free again (meaning the damn won't last forever). I would think without a dredging program, the resevoir would fill in with silt...

What Venezuela did in their countries dam building (forget which) was criminal. The animals trapped on those islands don't have a chance.

I guess small scale is probably better then mega. HOwever, no energy comes without a cost.
User avatar
frankthetank
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6201
Joined: Thu 16 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Southwest WI

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby Macsporan » Fri 09 Sep 2005, 00:44:26

you do not know what you are talking about.


I may not know much about power generation, but I know what I like.

Coal? Nuclear? Gas? Oil?

Hello?

We will need electric power to survive. Hydro sounds like the best of a bad lot, at least until something else turns up.

I feel sorry for the fishies, but I don't think they're worth the future of Civilisation.

Is it possible perhaps, that other things are killing them too?

Also, can't dams be dredged so they don't fill up. Makes good farming dirt.

Don't worry about the ENORI about that.

People were dredging long before the inner combustion engine poked its ugly face into our world.
Son of the Enlightenment
User avatar
Macsporan
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu 09 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Australia

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 09 Sep 2005, 00:52:07

Macsporan wrote:Yes you drown a few river valleys and dispossess some small, cute furry animals as well as human beings, but then you've got several decades of clean, free power.

I love it.


Mac,

Your ignorance is showing. Talk about myopic. :lol:
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16593
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO

Re: Need to rant about hydroelectric sources!!

Unread postby rogerhb » Fri 09 Sep 2005, 01:07:59

In the UK in the Lake District, one of the lakes is a resevoir to provide water for Manchester. They drowned a village to do it.

Now I found out that, even though Europeans have only been in NZ since 1840 they still found time to build a village and then decide to drown it.

Some place in the South Island, it was on TV on a program showing how much rail had been ripped up in NZ, I didn't know we had much to start with.

Remarkable.
User avatar
rogerhb
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4727
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Smalltown New Zealand

Next

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 50 guests