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The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 02:51:48

GHung wrote:Jeez, O_S, don't confuse Cog with pragmatic arguments. He needs his value/judgement-based world view just to exist.

He still thinks,I am a Communist when I have told him repeatedly, I am an Anarchist ie not just smaller Gov, no Gov 8)
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 05:12:00

There's plenty of places with no effective government, I've lived in some. There's upsides & down. Getting away with murder. Being murdered by someone who will get away with it. That's just to start with.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 11:08:09

mmasters wrote:I think any POer would be for Trump tariffs. Bringing back the jobs and the products from overseas makes not only for a better product in many cases but the US is less vulnerable/dependent on other countries and more self sufficient. It's a better scenario post peak.

Or in reality, jobs leave the US or US trading partners set up agreements and ignore the US.

Like Germany and China setting up massive new trade deals free of US tariffs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKBN1JZ0VM

Or last week it being announced that Tesla and BMW are setting up EV factories in China, largely or exclusively for Chinese consumption. So much for the idea of Tesla being a "Made in America" company, for example. On the same day. The timing looked far more like a message from China than a coincidence to me.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/07/10/tes ... a-factory/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -for-china

Tesla, BMW Bypass Trump’s Trade War and Score a Win for China

Are we "winning" yet? :roll:

Unless the US (wrongly) thinks it would be better off without ANY trade (comparitive advantage makes that idea ludicrous, overall, even if we had lots of every needed resource, which we don't) -- overall, larger tariffs just make things more expensive and less efficient over time.

...

Better products? Ever taken a real look at US car quality for the past 40 years compared to, say, Japanese car quality? Again - comparative advantage. Oh, and the UAW. Do you really think Amtrack is the best passenger railroad in the world? Don't make me laugh.

This might make sense in a post-crash scenario with almost no motorized transportation. We're not exactly there yet.

Mindless cheerleading for bad Trump policies (like a trade war) doesn't equate to reality or good economic policy.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 11:18:35

Globalization is a dream come true for Capitalism. So all you defenders of Capitalism its NOT so nice when you are the exploited rather than the exploiter eh? Speaking to those especially in the US
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Cog » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 11:26:14

onlooker wrote:Globalization is a dream come true for Capitalism. So all you defenders of Capitalism its NOT so nice when you are the exploited rather than the exploiter eh? Speaking to those especially in the US


Leftist love globalism and giving up their national rights and heritage. Trump is changing the equation and the left is outraged he would dare to do so.

Oh and sorry your girl lost.

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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby mmasters » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:20:01

onlooker wrote:Globalization is a dream come true for Capitalism.

It's only a dream come true to assholes like David Rockefeller and the other elites. They make incredible profits off all the sheer volume of commerce and cheap labor. Meanwhile, it's a race to the bottom for everyone else.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:38:16

The truth would be that it is robot labor producing Tesla cars. When Tesla replicates an existing production line in China, the actual numbers of Chinese human jobs created would be about a quarter of those created over here where the production of that vehicle design was prototyped and developed. Then shortly following that we will have sold tens of thousands of Tesla automobiles in China, using up a solid chunk of their total Lithium production, and avoiding tariffs that would have been applied to American-made vehicles imported to China, along with much of our own Lithium. We win and they lose, they would have ripped off the design for both the vehicle and the manufacturing robotic production line without any compensation had we not done this.

Get a clue. The Chinese are the gangsters of the world, and they lost this round to the Americans.

You need to quit thinking about unskilled production line jobs. Human labor for those types of jobs was replaced by assembly line robots years ago. The UAW's back was broken by digital automation, not by politics. Unskilled human labor in all forms is going obsolete everywhere. The only people who benefit from vehicle production in today's world are skilled laborers and those who own the means of production.
Last edited by KaiserJeep on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:44:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:40:34

mmasters wrote:
onlooker wrote:Globalization is a dream come true for Capitalism.

It's only a dream come true to assholes like David Rockefeller and the other elites. They make incredible profits off all the sheer volume of commerce and cheap labor. Meanwhile, it's a race to the bottom for everyone else.

Exactly! The owners of Capital and main beneficiaries of Capitalism. Of course everyone likes to live "the good life" But, they get to live the "extra" good life. Until the System breaks, then as Newfie said, their digitized wealth will mean nothing. Oh and MM, you are one of them who gets it
Meanwhile, it's a race to the bottom for everyone else.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 12:48:56

Kaiser, the US is playing a dangerous game with this trade war with China and China as well. They both stand to lose

While rare earths aren’t actually that rare — there are more REEs in the ground than copper or lead — they are extremely difficult to mine economically. China has dominated rare earth mining since the 1990s, extracting 85 to 95 percent of the world’s REEs from large clay deposits in the country’s south. When China cut back sharply on REE exports in 2010, it triggered a global price spike, exposing the superpower’s monopolistic grip on materials that are critical to dozens of high-tech industries. Now a Chinese-led coalition threatens to further tighten control of the rare earths trade with the purchase of the only operational REE mine in America


https://www.seeker.com/tech/materials/c ... of-us-mine
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 13:26:09

Nobody knows that better than me, who used to design products using electronic components produced with REEs. But REEs are rare not becuase of abundance issues, rather because so much bulk material must be processed to recover usable amounts of those REEs. Their production consumes copious amounts of energy and produces widespread environmental devastation.

Having China producing REEs is similar to fighting a ground war on their soil.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Cog » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 13:38:18

North Korea has plenty of rare earth minerals. Just saying.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 16:46:25

onlooker wrote:Kaiser, the US is playing a dangerous game with this trade war with China and China as well. They both stand to lose

While rare earths aren’t actually that rare — there are more REEs in the ground than copper or lead — they are extremely difficult to mine economically. China has dominated rare earth mining since the 1990s, extracting 85 to 95 percent of the world’s REEs from large clay deposits in the country’s south. When China cut back sharply on REE exports in 2010, it triggered a global price spike, exposing the superpower’s monopolistic grip on materials that are critical to dozens of high-tech industries. Now a Chinese-led coalition threatens to further tighten control of the rare earths trade with the purchase of the only operational REE mine in America


https://www.seeker.com/tech/materials/c ... of-us-mine


Pure politically induced myth. The truth is the rare earths most desired are all chemically reactive in the same fashion as Thorium. In the 'west' the politicians passed laws back in the 1950's making it difficult to mine thorium without jumping through as very large number of hoops, because 70 years ago it was expected that Thorium would be the source material for Uranium-233 weapons cores. It turned out that making Plutonium-239 weapon cores is an order of magnitude easier so NOBODY uses U-233 for weapon purposes, though it works great as a reactor fuel. In the case of those expectations the US Government stockpiled thousands of tons of Thorium metal and went to great lengths to discourage civilian use of Thorium metal for anything. Coleman lanterns from 40 or more years ago use Thorium dioxide mesh around the flame because it works as a wonderful catalyst to promote complete combustion of the fuel and lowers the Carbon Monoxide released. Heck some rocket nozzles for the Apollo Program back in the 1960's used thorium alloys to promote complete combustion of the Kerosene fuel in the first stage as well. Then the AEC got reconfigured into the NRC which is a true bureaucratic NIGHTMARE of epic proportions and the NRC regulated that all radioactive substances that can even theoretically be used as a source material for weapons must be tightly controlled. Shoot back in the 1960's some commercial airliners and private yachts used depleted Uranium weights on cables to adjust the trim of the craft to keep it balanced and stable. All that went out the window with the NRC taking charge.

Up until about 1975 the USA had plenty of rare earths from Thorium mining. That thorium stockpile I mentioned above, well about a decade ago the NRC in its 'wisdom' dug a huge hole in the desert, set all the thorium in steel shipping containers in the bottom and them back filled over it with the dirt they took out of the hole in the first place. This is under the theory that buried thorium is safe despite the fact that with its 14 BILLION year half-life most of that thorium will still be right there when the Sun swells up into a red giant and swallows the Earth in a few billion years.

People have been trying to get licenses to mine rare earths in the USA for decades and at every turn the NRC nixes the proposals because they produce 'refined thorium'! China and North Korea are run by educated people who mostly have degrees in engineering, which is the art of making things function. The USA and EU are mostly run by lawyers and accountants whose goal is to never do anything wrong, which is semantically the same as never doing anything with even the slightest theoretical risk attached.

EPA statement on rare earth mining in USA
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 11:39:10

I think there is some confusion within this thread over the role of the worker under capitalism. They are a cost. Their humanity, and whatever plight, doesn't automatically give them some element of either control or ownership. They are just as close to any capitalist as your average homeless person is to you. You can choose via compassion to help. They can too. That's what you're left with, unless you want to modify capitalism.

There are many forms of capitalism. Ours prefers lower taxes and lower costs. It gravitates toward lower cost marketing. It does that because the power of people spending money moves everything. In America people dedicate their money to where they have to survive, and that is within a narrow context defined by their jobs and family. Most people live like serfs. Their decisions are made for them. Only taking risk is an acceptable means of getting an edge, and simply getting by relying upon the largess of your employer is not risk taking. Staying in place and changing to meet the demands of your employer is not risk taking. Other forms of capitalism may use taxation in order to enforce a different balance, giving workers more power but also entertaining the idea of class inherent to an actor in the system. That is, those other forms toy with thinking about people as members of groups. It's a different way than the ruggedly individualistic way of America.

The real appeal of Trump is his use of American mythology to explain where people are as a result of not waking up to their common plight and keeping up the fight on an individual basis. It's ok to organize over some conspiracy theorist notion regarding the BLM, but don't you individuals dare recognize your common plight and organize over your labor. That's anathema to a rugged individual. And, for God's sake, don't organize over other class related issues. The commonality in America has a very thin definition. It is the definition given us by our form of capitalism, and our reluctance to let go of what it was like in the little borough we came from. We identify with those who came up around us. We don't really care about outsiders to that group, unless they come offering jobs. Because we all want to get rich, whatever the rich want to do with their money has to be sacrosanct. We don't want a well oiled and properly working machine that distributes resources according to need. We want wealth. Those who don't have it will have to rely upon charity. Trump allows us to keep thinking that way rather than wake up. He uses these arguments from when I was a kid, fearing trade instead of telling the people like it is. He doesn't want to tell them that their not finding work is not because they were outperformed by some off-shored worker, but because (from the capitalist point of view) they are afraid to take actual risk.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 12:00:00

The only difference is that I don’t see Hillary or the D’s or the R’s as substantially different. They may make some noise but damn little action. I think you give Trump too much power in this regard.

But otherwise a good and interesting analysis.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Cog » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 12:05:39

evilgenius said:

"We don't want a well oiled and properly working machine that distributes resources according to need."

You are right. We don't want communism. Your needs are not my concern. They are of your concern alone. If your needs are not being met, then you need to figure out the best way to achieve them. It is not the role of government to supply your needs, wants, or desires.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Pops » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 15:29:26

Great rant Evil!

Spot on in your description of capitalism and it's central part of our class structure. The Invisible Hand of Smith was all about selfish aims benefiting society, which was all well and good when we were all bakers and harness makers. But as KJ notes, capital doesn't distinguish between human resources and other forms of production.

It's ok to organize over some conspiracy theorist notion regarding the BLM, but don't you individuals dare recognize your common plight and organize over your labor.


Gonna bring back coal!
LOL, coal jobs will never "come back" because they've been automated, but it makes a great spiel to keepl the proles occupied. Meantime lets pass a tax law that increases the deficit a trillion per annum that gives 85% of the benefit to the top percentiles.

Over time Ds migrated away from protecting unions so legal protections eroded. Now, not only do most people feel the only way to get ahead is individually (by getting a degree) they think unions (in gov mostly now) are taking advantage. Look how bad they've been treating teachers.

Clinton, Bill, thought he was too smart, run down unions and welfare just like the Rs, and on the other side play to the minority vote. It stuck. In the D platform in 1992 "gays" were mentioned once. In 2016, LGBT was noted 20 times while worker's unions were referenced 9 times. I think everyone should be treated equally. I also think 90% of us sell our time every day to get by and have no representation.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 23:30:13

Collapse for capitalist systems is inevitable for two reasons: the need to profit, and to maximize that in light of competition, eventually leads to increasing amounts of credit created and running after limited resources, of which exploitation is also maximized. The result is a combination of economic instability due to rising debt coupled with a resource crunch, with financial speculation only making matters worse.

The second reason involves pollution created as resources are used, and which increases as more people worldwide need and want to use more resources, leading to ecological collapse and the effects of global warming.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Jul 2018, 01:10:24

ralfy wrote:Collapse for capitalist systems is inevitable for two reasons: the need to profit, and to maximize that in light of competition, eventually leads to increasing amounts of credit created and running after limited resources.... The result is a combination of economic instability due to rising debt .... with financial speculation only making matters worse.


That does seem to be a problem in the capitalist system. However, the solution is also inherent in capitalism---let the economy go into recession and let the companies and individuals who are in debt declare bankruptcy. The system will then reset as surviving companies buy up the assets of the bankrupt companies, and another cycle of growth will start again. Most recessions last only 1-2 years, and do a valuable service by clearing away companies that can't compete. Workers can be hit hard if they lose their jobs, but ideally they can find new jobs when the economy starts to grow again as the recession ends.

ralfy wrote:The second reason involves pollution created as resources are used... leading to ecological collapse and the effects of global warming.


That has nothing to do with capitalism. Socialism and communism created some of the filthiest and most polluted places on earth....I was astonished how trashed out parts of the USSR and eastern Europe were when I visited there before the Berlin Wall fell and socialism collapsed.

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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Jul 2018, 07:42:12

Plant,

Sort of a divergent thought but....Capitalisim is often said to be a reflection of humanity, our collective personality. I wonder if it could be said that humanity itself will go into recession or depression, decreasing in numbers, cleaninag away populations that can’t compete.

Just a rumination.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 22 Jul 2018, 08:36:32

Kaiser says, that Capitalism is a natural outgrowth of our primate urges and impulses. I don't disagree with that. So, you can say at this point it is quite obvious that these traits and the economic system that embodies them is maladaptive for our species. Even if once they were useful. Tanada states, that we can channel them in a productive manner. Reminds me of the Vulcans in Star Trek, who committed to suppresing their emotions when confronted with their pernicious influence. So, what can be done in this respect?
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