Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Coal Thread pt 4

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 02 Jun 2018, 10:59:30

I am profoundly disturbed by these actions, because they deny the reasons for retiring coal plants, which are that they spew more carbon dioxide than other types of power generation, and more disease-causing hydrocarbon pollutants.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 11:47:58

Current Germany politicians are using the same verbal trick many others have been using for years: committing future politicians to support significant changes in fossil fuel consumption. Commitments current politicians have no way of guaranteeing while avoiding public/voter backlash for making such significant changes while they are still looking for reelection. Whether you agree with him or not at least the POTUS is putting his policies upfront and not hiding behind unenforceable policies of future govts. Notice this report was not released to the public but leaked. Same cowardly bullshit. IOW listen to what I’m saying and don’t look at what I’m actually doing…or not doing. From

http://www.climatechangenews.com/2018/0 ... s-climate/

“The upcoming commission tasked with the management of Germany’s coal exit will prioritize jobs and economic stability over climate protection, a strategy paper seen by the Clean Energy Wire suggests. “Federal government policy aims to create full employment and comparable living standards in all of Germany,” the paper’s first sentence reads, underlining the commission’s strategic priority of ensuring local economies weather the phase-out of both coal mining and coal-fired power production. The document acknowledges Germany’s pledge to become “largely greenhouse gas-neutral” by 2050 and confirms the government’s 2030 target of reducing emission by 55% compared to 1990.”
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11397
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 13:20:35

baha wrote:I can give you grid stability for a reasonable fee... and a big pile of Lithium.

But instead of burning the lithium and polluting the world with CO2 and ash, I will just put it in a can and use it to store spare electrons. In ten years when the lithium is tired I can open the can, reprosses the lithium. and start again.

I could put the battery storage plant right where that nasty old coal plant used to be. The wires are already there.

There was an article yesterday about wind power potential in NC. It seems we could produce 5 times the power we use with offshore wind farms. Then we could use a superconducting DC transmission line to connect to the battery facility located where the coal plant used to be.

What the hell are we waiting for?
Lithium ion batteries are a great fit for portable electronics and EVs. Cars spend 95% of their time parked. And drivers rarely discharge their batteries to the maximum amount allowed, further prolonging their battery life. So the duty cycle for your typical EV battery is light. Contrast that with the duty cycle for a grid storage battery that may have to discharge-charge multiple times per day and have far greater depth of discharge. This greatly curtails the amount of life cycles you get out of the battery. Not to mention the safety issue of lithium batteries. There are other battery technologies out their that are better suited to the duty cycle of grid storage. However lithium ion has first mover advantage and those who try to compete with it often get crushed. So for now we are stuck with batteries that are not very good for grid storage.

Manufacturers of lithium-ion batteries for EVs and handheld electronics would naturally like to apply their technology that was designed with only one application in mind – high energy density – to large-scale energy storage. But just because it is right for your phone, laptop, or hoverboard, it doesn’t mean lithium is the right chemistry for far more demanding, higher energy uses. Lithium-ion’s high energy density is useful for personal electronics where (smaller) size matters, but for stationary storage applications that need to have the ability to handle high power and/or long duration applications multiple times a day, a far more versatile, robust energy storage system is required. Duration, cycle life, versatility, and overall battery life are areas where the chemistry and design of lithium-ion energy storage systems don’t stack up.

The giant elephant in the room is named safety
Large-scale lithium-ion battery makers know how important safety is. That’s why they design very complicated cooling and fire suppression systems for their units to keep the system from entering thermal runaway. As distributed energy storage systems become more and more commonplace, the likelihood will grow that they need to be deployed in highly populated areas next to schools, hospitals, office buildings, etc., so even if all costs were equal lithium-ion begins to be a difficult choice.

It's all about the revenue
Stationary energy storage systems must be able to withstand punishing duty cycles, sometimes requiring full charge and discharge cycles multiple times a day. While a redox flow battery can facilitate these requirements several times in a day if necessary, most lithium-ion based energy storage systems are capable of only one daily cycle and often have a mandated rest period. The fire suppression and cooling systems necessary for lithium-ion energy storage systems also add to the size and weight of the overall units and decrease efficiency, add complexity, and increase field reliability concerns. These limitations reduce the amount of revenue-grade energy the system can support every day, week, month and year. Furthermore, lithium-ion cells degrade continuously over time and they need to be replaced frequently.

Lithium-ion batteries certainly have their place in the electronics world as their energy density in a small form factor has facilitated the ever-decreasing size of all our mobile devices. But if people are waiting on the low-cost lithium magic bullet to make grid-scale stationary storage widely available, they should instead simply go with the flow [battery].
Why lithium-ion is NOT the new silicon

li-ion batteries are well suited to transportation applications, but not necessarily ideal for the grid, and locking in on li-ion batteries is making it difficult for producers of alternative storage technologies to survive, much less continue to innovate and scale up. That could block the entry of more optimal alternative technologies that may be longer lasting and have a longer cycle life. There are signs both are already happening.

In addition, the immense amount of capital being poured into expanding lithium-ion production raises the pressure on other players to compete on price alone. The lithium-ion cost curve is an aggregate of technologies used for a variety of applications, but mostly for electric vehicles and electronics, and thus it does not accurately reflect the costs of li-ion batteries for utility applications. The costs of utility scale li-ion batteries have some unique qualities that are not fully reflected in many of the li-ion cost curve projections.

Lithium-ion batteries are also vulnerable to commodity risk because they use cobalt, which has doubled in price recently. Nickel is being used as a replacement, but the trade-off is a loss of cycle life. “That’s okay for electric vehicles, but it doesn’t work for grid applications.”
Lithium-ion domination could block promising storage technologies, MIT finds

So far this year, at least two battery manufacturers working on novel technologies have declared bankruptcy. In March, Aquion Energy filed for bankruptcy. Aquion was known for its aqueous hybrid ion battery technology, which the company touted as a safer and cheaper alternative to li-ion batteries. And late last week, Alevo USA and Alevo Manufacturing, both part of Alevo Group, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy court protection. At one point, Alevo was seen as a rival to Tesla. In the end, Alevo has “insufficient revenue to continue operations.” It is now seeking to liquidate its assets.
Alevo's bankruptcy illustrates the pitfalls newcomers face in energy storage markets
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 5000
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby jawagord » Thu 22 Nov 2018, 20:54:53

Apparently the Russians missed the memo that no one will be using coal anymore? I'm sure this development fits in with their Paris commitments once they get around to ratifying the agreement in 2020!

Exports of coal from the Russian Arctic city might almost double to more than 25 million tons per year when construction of the new local coal terminal is completed.

An agreement was this week signed by the State Transport Leasing Company and the Federal Agency for Maritime and River Transport. The deal, a so-called concessional agreement, includes the investments of 24 billion rubles (€320 million) in the new Lavna terminal.


https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/ecolo ... uture-coal
Don't deny the peak!
jawagord
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Mon 29 May 2017, 10:49:17

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 10:28:03

jawagord wrote:Apparently the Russians missed the memo that no one will be using coal anymore? I'm sure this development fits in with their Paris commitments once they get around to ratifying the agreement in 2020!

Exports of coal from the Russian Arctic city might almost double to more than 25 million tons per year when construction of the new local coal terminal is completed.

An agreement was this week signed by the State Transport Leasing Company and the Federal Agency for Maritime and River Transport. The deal, a so-called concessional agreement, includes the investments of 24 billion rubles (€320 million) in the new Lavna terminal.


https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/ecolo ... uture-coal

The piece does not say what countries are importing this Siberian coal. I would think China bound coal would just move by rail southeast.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 13:32:05

Turkey is looking to hold tenders for at least five coal mines this year including one with 136 million tons of reserves, Turkish Deputy Energy Undersecretary Zafer Benli told Reuters on April 10.

Speaking on the sidelines of an energy technology summit, Benli said the first tender will be held in June for the Armutçuk coal mine in the northwestern province of Zonguldak, which has up to 20 million tons of coal reserves.

“We will also open a mine with 136 million tons coal reserves for investment,” Benli said.

“We aim to hold tenders for at least five coal mines this year,” he added.

The tenders will be held through a license-transfer method.

Following Armutçuk, the second coal mine to be auctioned will be the mine in the western district of Soma, Benli said, adding that the current contract for this mine would first be abolished and the tender would then be undertaken by means of the contract transfer.


LINKY
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17048
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 13:33:33

Turkey is a large country with a population surpassed only by Germany in the European Union. GDP growth was around 7.3% in 2015 and averaged 5.5% from 2000 to 2015. The Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources (MENR) is responsible for the preparation and implementation of energy policies, plans and programmes in co‑ordination with its affiliated institutions and other public and private entities. It has statutory duties covering coal mines, power stations and the electricity grid.

Total primary energy supply was 185.3 Mtce in 2015. With per-capita energy use in Turkey still comparatively low at 1.7 tonnes of oil equivalent (compared with an EU-average of 3.2 toe), energy demand is expected to grow rapidly due to the growing economy and the demographic impact of a young population.

Turkey’s indigenous energy resources consist almost exclusively of lignite and small amounts of hard coal. Together with coal imports, coal and lignite met 27.3% of total primary energy supply. At 30.2%, natural gas has the highest share in the energy mix, 99% imported. Oil accounted for 30.1% of energy supply in 2015, 89% imported. Overall, the country had an import dependency of 80% in 2015.

Turkey has large coal resources, in contrast to its limited oil and gas resources. The Turkish coal sector produced 1.5 million tonnes of hard coal and 41.8 million tonnes of lignite in 2015, this being 41.8% of total primary energy production and was used mostly for power generation. Coal imports have doubled since 2005 and stood at 31.5 million tonnes in 2015, again used mostly for power generation.

In total, Turkish coal-fired power plants had an installed capacity of approximately 15 200 MW at the end of 2015 (20.6% of total capacity). Hard coal-fired power plant installed capacity was 6 500 MW (8.8%) and the installed capacity using domestic lignite was 8 700 MW (11.8%). Turkey has embarked on an ambitious programme to build new power plants, some with the latest supercritical and circulating fluidised bed boiler technologies to burn mainly lignite and imported coal: Izdemir Enerji (350 MW), ICDAS Elektrik (600 MW) and Atlas Enerji (600 MW) started operations in 2014; Tufanbeyli Enerjisa (300 MW), Silopi (270 MW) and Bolu-Göynük 1 (135 MW) started operation in 2015; and Bolu-Göynük 2 (135 MW) started operation in 2016. All new power plants must comply with the EU Large Combustion Plants Directive (2001/80/EC).

Another 7 000 MW of coal-fired power plants are under construction, this being the largest such construction programme outside China and India. In 2015 alone, the Turkish government approved the construction of three new coal-fired power plants, that will increase capacity by 2 480 MW: Filiz Enerji was given approval for a 1 200 MW coal plant in Canakkale on the Aegean coast; Atakaş Energy received approval for a 680 MW power plant at İskenderun on the Mediterranean coast; and IC İçtaş Energy has permission for a 600 MW power plant near the city of Adana in the south of the country. In 2016, Tosyalı Electricity received approval for another 1 200 MW power plant at İskenderun.

In 2015, 72.1 TWh (27.8%) of Turkey’s gross electricity production of 259.7 TWh was generated from hard coal (15.2%) and lignite (12.5%). Of the remainder, 38.6% was provided by natural gas, 25.8% by hydropower, 0.8% by oil and the remaining 7.0% from waste, wind, geothermal and other renewable energy sources, including an insignificant quantity from solar. Turkey, through its Vision 2023 strategy that marks the 100th anniversary of the Republic, aims to increase its domestic electricity production by constructing new lignite-fired power plants and raising the shares of wind and geothermal power. Two new nuclear power plants are under construction with a combined capacity of 9 200 MW.

Turkish lignite production has doubled over the last ten years while hard coal production remained insignificant and heavily subsidised. Coal is extracted by three state-owned enterprises – TÜRKIYE KÖMÜR İŞLETMELERI (TKİ – Turkish Coal Enterprises), ELEKTRIK ÜRETIM (EÜAŞ – Electricity Generation Company) and TÜRKIYE TAŞKÖMÜRÜ KURUMU (TTK – Turkish Hard Coal Enterprises) – and a growing number of private companies, some under contract to the state-owned companies.

Hard coal

Turkey’s main hard coal deposits are located in the Zonguldak basin, between Ereğli and Amasra on the Black Sea coast in north-western Turkey. Hard coal resources in the basin are estimated at some 1.3 billion tonnes. The calorific value of hard coal reserves varies between 6 200 and 7 200 kcal/kg. This coal basin is the only region in Turkey where hard coal is extracted and it has a very complex geological structure which makes mechanised coal production almost impossible and requires labour-intensive coal production methods.

The state-owned TTK has a de-facto monopoly in the production, processing and distribution of hard coal, although there are no legal restrictions on private sector involvement. TTK operates five deep mines in the Zonguldak coal basin and produced approximately 1.5 million tonnes of saleable coal in 2015, supplying the 300 MW Catalağzı thermal power plant owned by Bereket Energy as well as other customers.

In 2015, Turkey also imported 31.5 million tonnes of hard coal for thermal power plants, steel production, industry and domestic heating purposes – one third from Russia, one third from Colombia and smaller quantities from South Africa (15%), Australia (8%) and elsewhere. Coal imports to Turkey are expected to continue to increase in the future.

At Silopi near the Iraqi border, the third unit of Ciner Group’s 405 MW asphaltite-fired power plant was commissioned in 2015 by China National Machinery Engineering Corporation.

Lignite

Lignite is Turkey’s most important indigenous energy resource, with proven reserves of 15.6 billion tonnes. Deposits are spread across the country, the most important one being the Afşin-Elbistan lignite basin of south-eastern Anatolia, near the city of Maraş where the economic reserves are estimated at around 7 billion tonnes. The Soma basin is the second-largest lignite mining area in Turkey. Other exploited deposits are located in: Muğla province with the Yeniköy lignite facility at Ören (Milas) and the South Aegean lignite facility at Yatağan; Kütahya province with the Seyitömer lignite facility at Seyitömer and the Tunçbilek mining centre at Tavşanlı; Çanakkale province with the Çan lignite facility; Bursa province with the Bursa lignite facility at Orhaneli; and Konya province with the Ilgın lignite facility. The quality of Turkish lignite is generally very poor and only around 5.1% of existing reserves have a heat content of more than 3 000 kcal/kg (12 500 kJ/kg). A project to explore new deposits was initiated in 2005. By 2015, 7.38 billion tonnes of new reserves had been proven.

The scale of Turkey’s surface mining operations allows lignite to be produced at a relatively low cost, making it competitive with imported energy resources. In 2015, lignite output totalled 41.8 million tonnes, far below the 59.6 million tonnes of 2014. Most of Turkey’s lignite production is from opencast mines. However, there are some underground mining activities, mainly in the Soma, Tunçbilek and Beypazarı basins. The drop in production in 2015 was due to the tragic accident at Soma mine in May 2014 and the subsequent safety measures taken across the mining industry.

TKİ is working in collaboration with TÜBİTAK, the Turkish Scientific and Technical Research Council, and other international partners on lignite drying and gasification research projects, some partly supported by the EU.


LINK
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 17048
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 17:57:01

It is just speculation, but I really believe we will burn every gram we can access.

All claims we are limiting ourselves appear to be lies we tell each other to make ourselves feel virtuous.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Subjectivist
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4700
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby lpetrich » Mon 04 Feb 2019, 05:32:41

Subjectivist wrote:It is just speculation, but I really believe we will burn every gram we can access.

For what reason? To burn it for the sake of burning it?
User avatar
lpetrich
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu 22 Jun 2006, 03:00:00

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 Feb 2019, 06:55:22

lpetrich wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:It is just speculation, but I really believe we will burn every gram we can access.

For what reason? To burn it for the sake of burning it?
For the useful heat it generates when burned.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby GHung » Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:12:53

I've noticed a lot of Youtube posts about folks finding older coal burning stoves to refurbish so they can burn coal and wood. Seems coal for home use has gotten very cheap (cheaper per BTU than pellets). One guy was buying 50 pound bags for about $5. Lasts him 2-3 days, heating his home for about $2 per day (in NH, I think).
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3093
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 16:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 Feb 2019, 20:01:05

GHung wrote:I've noticed a lot of Youtube posts about folks finding older coal burning stoves to refurbish so they can burn coal and wood. Seems coal for home use has gotten very cheap (cheaper per BTU than pellets). One guy was buying 50 pound bags for about $5. Lasts him 2-3 days, heating his home for about $2 per day (in NH, I think).

Pellets are the big thing in local retail. Buy a one ton pallet full of fifty lb. bags and they will deliver it free. Different stoves not suited for coal. Good dry cord wood here is going for $300 a cord so about $10/ day in an average house so if you have the burner that can use coal for $5/day and can find the coal why not.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 04 Feb 2019, 20:56:58

Because coal is nasty, very dirty heat, that releases more toxic substances than burning wood or gas or oil. In fact, it's the most polluting fuel we have in common use.

Speaking as somebody who remembers when coal was burned for residential heating, if a temperture inversion happened over a city, the smog burned your eyes, lungs, and mouth, then hard-to-clean fine black soot landed everywhere. This was in the MidWest in the early 1960s.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 Feb 2019, 21:39:39

Not to worry KJ. The number of readers that have or will acquire a stove that can burn it and will do the physical labor needed to charge it and remove the ashes if and only if they can find a supply of coal is very small indeed.
I was just seeing who would rise to the topic.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby EdwinSm » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 06:32:25

A toxic crisis in America’s coal country: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47165522

The damage has been done, but the faster we can move to a (largely) solar-based economy, the better.
EdwinSm
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu 07 Jun 2012, 04:23:59

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby GoghGoner » Thu 11 Apr 2019, 09:52:09

Trump signed an executive orders that increase the possibility of coal exports. Washington state has successfully prevented any export terminals for the Powder River coal but this may be a game changer.
GoghGoner
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1827
Joined: Thu 10 Apr 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Stilłwater subdivision

Re: THE Coal Thread pt 4

Unread postby careinke » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 04:43:52

GoghGoner wrote:Trump signed an executive orders that increase the possibility of coal exports. Washington state has successfully prevented any export terminals for the Powder River coal but this may be a game changer.


Well I know Washington State is shipping coal into Tacoma, and I certainly expect it is being exported somewhere as it is not used here. Trains of the stuff are parked about a mile from my Brother in Laws house.
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4658
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: The time .... has arrived.

Unread postby Yoshua » Tue 17 Mar 2020, 07:47:29

"Japan closed its nuclear plants and is replacing them with coal plants"

The time...to close down the nukes...has arrived.
Yoshua
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1977
Joined: Sat 28 May 2016, 06:45:42

Re: The time .... has arrived.

Unread postby careinke » Wed 18 Mar 2020, 01:59:26

Yoshua wrote:"Japan closed its nuclear plants and is replacing them with coal plants"

The time...to close down the nukes...has arrived.


Thorium reactors may help save the day.
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4658
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

cron