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THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 18 Jan 2018, 17:03:46

However the biomass is consumed - energy production or lawn fertilizer - the net result would appear to be (especially in the case of slow growing hardwoods) that hundreds of years of slowly grown dense wood have been consumed in the past few years.

Frankly, understanding the whole carbon cycle in forests is a little daunting. I do actually believe that for the sake of the environment, we should be returning a considerable amount of our cleared lands to forest biomes. In the coastal areas of Lake Michigan I am focussed on, there are some quite attractive parcels that are fundamentally second growth forest. These were clear-cut in the early 19th century from primordial forests of mixed hardwoods and evergreens. Then they spent decades - sometimes more than a century - as cattle pastures producing dairy products. This caused more rapid erosion on the Western banks of the Lake. As populations grew in the MidWest, these areas became more valuable as homesites - thus the second growth forests. Not enough of them - I'd prefer that we had a solid mile or so of forest around the lakes - but a fair amount.

Now for some speculation. The use of human wastes for fertilizers is a dangerous practice, as they contain traces of heavy metals and antibiotics and a whole slew of other substances. It is probably not a sound practice to use such wastes for the fertilization of food crops. Is there not an opportunity here to re-grow forests and replenish soil carbons from human-sourced fertilizers?

OTOH, we do produce things such as maple syrups and honey from forests, and I for one love such naturally flavored sugars. I don't know if it's a sound long term practice, but even if we only did so for a short while, we could give reforested areas a jump start with human fertilizers. Once we have a sustainable form of forestry going, we could use the wood ashes from energy production to amend the soils and stimulate continued growth.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 18 Jan 2018, 20:56:31

KaiserJeep wrote: Once we have a sustainable form of forestry going, we could use the wood ashes from energy production to amend the soils and stimulate continued growth.
I have to doubt that the ashes from a wood burning facility returned to the forest land the wood came from would be sufficient to increase growth or the health of the ecosystem. A rotting log laying on the forest floor returns every molecule it contains to the forest floor and the host of life forms that depend on it. The same log burned in a power plant loses much of it's nutrients up the smoke stack and it's ashes as valuable as they are are not a complete substitute for the natural system of leaf fall and decomposition of fallen timber.
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 18 Jan 2018, 22:19:40

Yes, I agree with that. Organic supplements are needed. Lawn clippings, other yard wastes, cut brush, etc. could be used, as such organics do not belong in landfills. Here in Silicon Valley, we have general rubbish collection (landfill), mixed plastics/metals/glass/clean fiber recycling in another can, and yard wastes which get composted at high temperatures that supposedly sterilize the weed seeds. That last is heaped at the curb, scooped up by a machine, and collected on a seperate truck.

Such compost, amended with waste wood chips and bark, plus the aforementioned ashes, plus carefully selected chemical supplements, could be used in forests. I'd like to say "natural forest management", but that really is more applicable to unoccupied parklands than the medium density populated areas around lakes, many of which are of manmade origin in the first place.
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Trump pushes Big Corn and Oil to break biofuels deadlock

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 04 Mar 2018, 22:06:21


U.S. President Donald Trump urged representatives from the rival oil and corn industries on Thursday to break a deadlock in talks over the future of the nation’s biofuels policy by accepting a deal involving reforms sought by both sides. FILE PHOTO: The Philadelphia Energy Solutions oil refinery is seen at sunset in front of the Philadelphia skyline in Pennysylvania, U.S., March 24, 2014. REUTERS/David M. Parrott/File Photo Trump has arranged a series of talks between Big Corn and Big Oil since late last year amid rising concern in the White House over the U.S. Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS), a law requiring refiners to mix biofuels such as corn-based ethanol into their fuel. The decade-old policy was intended to help farmers and reduce petroleum imports but has increasingly divided farmers and energy companies - two of Trump’s most important constituencies. Refining company Philadelphia Energy


Trump pushes Big Corn and Oil to break biofuels deadlock
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Re: What happened to the 'Mother of all Biofuels Debate' thr

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 05 Mar 2018, 06:16:53

My own problem with the biofuels is that - at least in the case of the ethanols - they are making either human food or cattle/chicken food into fuels. I have an ethical problem doing this in a world with starving people. I would much rather use switchgrass or wood chips or lawn trimmings to make methanol and burn that.

It's just another example of what Ibon calls the "overshoot conundrum". I really should celebrate the diversion of millions of tons of grains into US fuel tanks, as it hastens TEOTWAWKI in the rest of the World. But my heart melts when I see starving kids in refugee camps, who have already faced TEOTWAWKI in their homeland. Yes, I know they are the real problem with the World, which is too many people, the one problem that underlies all other problems.

But they are starving human children.
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Re: What happened to the 'Mother of all Biofuels Debate' thr

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 05 Mar 2018, 09:31:01

KaiserJeep wrote:My own problem with the biofuels is that - at least in the case of the ethanols - they are making either human food or cattle/chicken food into fuels. I have an ethical problem doing this in a world with starving people. I would much rather use switchgrass or wood chips or lawn trimmings to make methanol and burn that.

It's just another example of what Ibon calls the "overshoot conundrum". I really should celebrate the diversion of millions of tons of grains into US fuel tanks, as it hastens TEOTWAWKI in the rest of the World. But my heart melts when I see starving kids in refugee camps, who have already faced TEOTWAWKI in their homeland. Yes, I know they are the real problem with the World, which is too many people, the one problem that underlies all other problems.

But they are starving human children.


Except cattle are not well adapted to a high grain diet, they are much healthier when allowed to graze naturally. There is also the fact that when you grind the corn kernels and allow the yeast to eat the starches you leave behind the protein of not only the grain but also the dead yeast which is high protein itself. In effect you are converting the high starch grain into high vegetable/yeast protein that is in its own fashion excellent feed for most livestock and pets. While it is true the total food calories is reduced by the extraction of the starch it is not zeroed out by a very long stretch, something like 40% of the caloric value exists in the combined spent brewers grain/yeast compound at the end of the process.

Of course using such a poor starch source as grain is stupid, but that is due to government policy encouraging growing maize instead of growing good ethanol crops like sweet potato, sugar beets and sugar cane which can be grown and produce much more abundant ethanol supply in the same areas where maize are grown in the north and rice is grown in the south.
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Re: What happened to the 'Mother of all Biofuels Debate' thr

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 05 Mar 2018, 11:05:17

But I just don't see an "except" there. If 40% of the calories remain, then 60% were converted to fuels via fermentation. The spent yeast and grain has always been used as animal feed, it never was wasted. Also, the corn has been specially developed to yield not only starch but high fructose syrup, which significantly boosts the alcohol production.

The other downside is that the high fructose corn syrup is so cheap that it is being added to almost all human packaged foods, because this causes it to taste better to people, increasing sales of such food. The downside is these syrup calories are empty of nutrition yet stimulate the appetite, and soaring rates of diabetes and obesity are the result.

Then the government piously tells you to eat healthy food, while pursuing the agriculture policies that produce the massive overabundance of grain and high fructose syrup.
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biogas generator

Unread postby RyanClements » Mon 26 Jul 2021, 23:04:02

What is Biogas Generator? Is it safe to use in the environment?
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Re: THE Biofuel Thread pt 6

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 27 Jul 2021, 16:23:34

Welcome aboard.

Here is one type.

Others use a burn in a low oxygen environment to produce volatile gasses.

Safe or not is a matter of opinion, unless you have a more specific question.
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