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Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:52:51

They shouldn't be selling their oil, not in such amounts as to rely upon it. They should be using it to engage in industries that need that oil as an input. Why isn't Venezuela one of the world's leading plastic manufacturers? Why don't they use their position to refine bauxite, the way that Iceland does with geothermal energy? The aluminum ore is closer to them than to the Icelanders. The savings over transport costs ought to give them an edge.

Why don't they exploit what they have in order to create something much larger and better than a mere tit for tat economy? As far as that goes, why aren't all of the world's oil producers thinking that way? I think a good part of the reason why is simply habit. That habit is partially formed by the understanding that the ruling powers in the West came to concerning the Export Land Model. It also has something to do with getting plugged into the economic system of the West. Most of those oil producers are run by small groups of people who generally place their money into the West's investments.

The people get used to being run by those small groups and don't understand democracy. If they get the chance to switch to a democratic form of government the concept is too foreign to them. People who have spent too much time being abused seek some form of an abusive situation again if they find themselves free somehow. It's the pattern they know, so they seek to rebuild it if they are faced with building any form of government.
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Venezuela Unveils Mining, Trading, and Launch Details of Nat

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 01 Jan 2018, 22:24:40


The Venezuelan government has published a decree outlining the operation of Venezuela’s national cryptocurrency, the Petro. It details the government’s plans for the new currency, including its issuance, mining, and trading. In addition, the Petro will be backed by 5 billion barrels of crude oil. 5 Billion Barrels of Oil and Mining Plan Nicolás Maduro. Venezuela’s president Nicolás Maduro has assigned 5.3 billion barrels of crude oil worth $267 billion to back the nation’s cryptocurrency. He first announced the creation of the Petro in early December, as news.Bitcoin.com reported. During a weekly national radio and TV broadcast, he showed a “document formalizing the provision of the certified Ayacucho oil field, No.1 in the Orinoco Petroleum Belt, for the support of El Petro cryptocurrency,” according to RT. Citing that “every single Petro will be backed by a barrel of oil,” Maduro confirmed: We will set up a


Venezuela Unveils Mining, Trading, and Launch Details of National Cryptocurrency
Peak oil in 2020: And here is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 02:59:40

They got burned when oil prices tanked. Imagine how burned they'll get when the crypto bubble tanks. They're just not that bright down there, alas.
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How the Collapse of Venezuela Really Happened

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 09:59:46


Today we welcome back our friend Jose, who wrote the awesome article about Christmas in Venezuela. It was so well-received that I invited him back to do a recurring series. In this piece, he begins telling us the story about how his country started the slide into a slow-motion collapse. Jose is a heck of a storyteller and he leaves us hanging at the end, but don’t worry, Part 2 is coming soon! ~ Daisy My Story of the Collapse of Venezuela I believe it is the moment of an introduction for our readers to know how everything began. Venezuela is a wonderful country, with lots of peculiarities and attractions. I love my country, and most of the people, even in these harsh times portraits wonderful qualities as a society that few countries in the world have. This was once a beautiful land, relatively


How the Collapse of Venezuela Really Happened
Peak oil in 2020: And here is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 10:22:17

A well written linked article. The Story of Venezuela is a stark example of the relatively recent past, the present and the tenuous future. It is about the inherent inequalities and inequities of Capitalism. No matter how much my friends here like to pooh pooh away these, they color and describe comprehensively the economic state of our planet. Exploitation and the priviledges and power bestowed by wealth. The ruling elite classes of Venezuela have acted no differently than all others around the world including the US exploiting their own people. Chavez and his clique wished to stir the boat a bit and given their vast Oil R eserves they felt, they could.

But in addition to corruption and self aggrandizement, they seemed to disturb the fabric of society too fast and too much. They were also pressured (civil unrest) and debilitated by the foreign and domestic interests not aligned with the Govt philosophy. Finally, by overerestimating their capability of exploiting their Oil reserves and when the Oil price fell that was a huge economic blow to them. So, it is complex but in stems from a Capitalistic system that encourages corruption and exploitation and from internal and external vulnerabilities of the country.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 10:44:16

If you want to bash Capitalism, we have a thread for that. But the pretend economic system that caused Venezuela to tank a once healthy economy was Marxism, as interpreted by Chavez and his cronies.

Marxism in all it's permutations has never worked for anybody anywhere anytime. The reason is quite simple, which is that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels did not understand the nature of mankind. Their ignorance suffused their thinking and just about everything they published is flawed as a consequence of their lack of understanding.

The fact that American academics, who more than anybody else anywhere and at any time, benefit enormously from Capitalism, are still bashing the system that enables their comfortable lifestyles, is simply incredible.

Understand this: Capitalism works for everybody, even academics. All you have to do is work hard, be average in intelligence, and not spend foolishly. If you cannot do the first, the other two do not matter. If you don't have the work ethic that allows you to work hard, your parents victimized you, not the system of Capitalism.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 11:34:38

Our Capitalism advocates would like you to believe that that working hard, intelligence and prudent budgeting will lift a country out of poverty. That is beyond simplistic and inherently wrong. The Africans work very hard I can assure you. But their hard work does not pay off for the majority of their citizens because they are exploited as is their entire continent and resources. Of course the exploitations are evident everywhere now on the planet. The world wide Debt system is nothing but legalized exploitation. I am not saying that because debt is inherently exploitative. But because of the policies that govern the current debt system. First off 30% interest rate (credit cards) or more is considered by many to be a usury rates. Second, compound interest is compounding the debt. Third, Fractional Reserve Banking has allowed excessive lending to take blossom given the ability of Banks to lend beyond actual deposits held.

Venezuela was already a poor country so let us not forget that. They were originally like many other countries people bought over as slaves and governed by a small predatory Spanish elite. Can you blame them for relying on their vast bounty of Oil as their main economic engine. KSA has done it successfully But they do not lack in hard workers, or intelligent people etc.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 11:52:59

You are sidestepping my main point which was that under Capitalism, Venezuela was transitioning from a very poor country to a modestly wealthy one with a growing Middle Class. Then the imposition of Marxism after the nationalization of all the petroleum production facilities messed that up. Under Marxism, they went from modestly affluent to being unable to feed themselves.

Oil did not curse Venezuela. Marxism cursed Venezuela.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 11:55:36

Looker - While I'll agree with you about some of the sad history of exploitation lets compare the history of two oil rich "countries": Venezuela and Texas. Feel free to characterize the economic system of Venezuela anyway you want. But you are hard pressed to find any economy on the planet more dominated by capitalism then that of Texas. Our state can be brutally capitalistic in the eyes of many. Our dedication to burning hydrocarbons (including coal) for electricity generation is one example. I'll let anyone compare the state of these two "countries" anyway they wish. But lets see how much they have in common other then being rich in oil reserves.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 18:34:18

And despite all the anger against corruption, corruption actually got much worse under Chavez and Maduro. This is understandable as the very policies implemented by Chavez and Maduro foster corruption. Chavez himself, the great man of the people, transferred $4.2 billion offshore into his daughter's bank account, making her Venezuela's richest woman. That's not even getting into the tons of Chavez/Maduro toadies lining their pockets at the expense of the people.

During Hugo Chávez's time in power, corruption has become widespread throughout the government due to impunity towards members of the government, bribes and the lack of transparency. In 2004, Hugo Chávez and his allies took over the Supreme Court, filling it with supporters of Chávez and made new measures so the government could dismiss justices from the court. According to the Cato Institute, the National Electoral Council of Venezuela was under control of Chávez where he tried to "push a constitutional reform that would have allowed him unlimited opportunities for reelection". Some criticisms of corruption came from Chávez's own supporters, with Chávez's initial political party, the Fifth Republic Movement (MVR), being criticized as being riddled with the same cronyism, political patronage, and corruption that Chávez alleged were characteristic of the old "Fourth Republic" political parties.

Public funds
In early 2000, Chávez's friend and co-conspirator in the 1992 Venezuelan coup d'état attempts Jesus Urdaneta was appointed head of Venezuela's intelligence agency, DISIP. Urdaneta began receiving reports that Chávez's allies, Luis Miquilena, leader of the National Assembly and José Vicente Rangel, Chávez's foreign minister, were keeping public funds for themselves. Urdaneta brought this to Chávez's attention, but Chávez ignored his advice saying that he needed the political experience of both men in order to establish power.

$22.5 billion of public funds have been transferred from Venezuela to foreign accounts with half of that money being unaccounted for by anyone. José Guerra, a former Central Bank executive, claims that most of that money has been used to buy political allies in countries such as Cuba and Bolivia. Chávez reportedly made promises and carried out most payments of nearly $70 billion USD to foreign leaders without the consultation of the people of Venezuela and without normal legal procedures.

Nicolás Maduro (2013–present)
Diosdado Cabello beside Nicolás Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores.President Nicolás Maduro and his wife Cilia Flores have been accused of nepotism, with individuals claiming that several of her close relatives became employees of the National Assembly when she became elected deputy. According to the Venezuelan newspaper Tal Cual, 16 relatives of Flores were in an office while she was in the National Assembly. In 2012, relatives of Flores were removed from office. However, relatives that were removed from office found other occupations in the government a year later. President Maduro's son and other relatives have also been used as examples of alleged nepotism.

As 2016 concluded, the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), an international non-governmental organization that investigates crime and corruption, gave President Maduro the Person of the Year Award that "recognizes the individual who has done the most in the world to advance organized criminal activity and corruption". The OCCRP stated that they had "chose Maduro for the global award on the strength of his corrupt and oppressive reign, so rife with mismanagement that citizens of his oil-rich nation are literally starving and begging for medicines" and that Maduro and his family steal millions of dollars from government coffers to fund patronage that maintains President Maduro's power in Venezuela. The group also explains how Maduro had overruled the legislative branch filled with opposition politicians, repressed citizen protests and had relatives involved in drug trafficking. “It’s been a big year for Maduro ... I think this year has been the tipping point and his negligence, incompetence and corruption are the cause. When a country’s leader can watch his people starve and still oversee a government stealing $70 billion a year all while his family deals drugs, it’s a special kind of evil."
Corruption in Venezuela

Maria Gabriela Chavez, 35, the late president's second-oldest daughter, holds assets in American and Andorran banks totaling almost $4.2 billion. The figure would make Gabriela Chavez wealthier than media mogul Gustavo Cisneros, whom Forbes named the wealthiest Venezuelan earlier this year with $3.6 billion in assets.

Others close to Chavez managed to build up great personal wealth that was kept outside the petrostate. Alejandro Andrade, who served as Venezuela’s treasury minister from 2007 to 2010 and was reportedly a close associate of Chavez, was discovered to have $11.2 billion in his name sitting in HSBC accounts in Switzerland, according to documents leaked by whistleblower Hervé Falciani.

El Comercio reported in 2014 that opposition congressman Carlos Berrisbeitía claimed the daughters of Chavez and Maduro, were costing the Venezuelan state $3.6 million a day.
Hugo Chavez's ambassador daughter is Venezuela's richest woman
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 18:44:19

If you really want to see how to cleanup corruption, you should checkout Singapore. They went from being an exploited, corrupt former colony where corruption was endemic to one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

Corruption was prominent from Singapore's colonial era until the end of the Japanese occupation in 1945.

Laws against corruption are tough. The Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau works directly with the Prime Minister's office and wields significant power; the Bureau can arrest individuals without a warrant and execute search and seizure orders carte blanche if there are "reasonable grounds to believe that any delay in obtaining the search warrant is likely to frustrate the object of the search." Those accused of corruption usually face a 5-year jail term and up to S$100,000 ($80,000) fine, and Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong wants to add even more penalties as a form of deterrence, according to the Associated Press. Lee made it clear that "it's far better to suffer the embarrassment and keep the system clean for the long-term, than to pretend that nothing has gone wrong and to let the rot spread." the results are noticeable, as Singapore has one of the lowest crime and corruption rates in the world.

The Singapore government keeps the salaries of politicians and civil servants high in order prevent talented, honest Singaporeans from leaving and to stifle the economic incentive to engage in corrupt activity. By tackling both the policing and financial factors of corruption, the payoff of corrupt activity is shifted from a low risk, high reward to high risk, low reward.

During Singapore's rule by the British and early independence, the state did not have the wealth it does today, and therefore could not afford to raise the salaries of politicians and civil servants. The shift came in the 1980s, when then Prime Minster Lee Kuan Yew enacted salary raises for senior level government officials and politicians. "He concluded that best way of dealing with corruption was `moving with the market [to incentive good behavior]," Quah explains, "which is 'an honest, open, defensible and workable system' instead of hypocrisy, which results in duplicity and corruption."
Why China Should Study Singapore's Anti-Corruption Strategy

if only Chavez & Maduro had followed Sinapore's example they could have quashed corruption instead of making it 10 times worse.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 18:54:42

Singapore makes oil?

I had idea :shock: 8)
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 19:00:53

pstarr wrote:Singapore makes oil?

I had idea :shock: 8)
Yeah because only countries with oil have corruption right pstarr? :roll:

Try and contribute something instead of drive by sniping pstarr.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 19:20:07

These brands own (almost) everything in Singapore
Brands That Own Everything You Eat
. . .
Brands That Own Where You Sleep & Shop
. . .
Brands That Own What You Read, Watch And Hear
. . .
The Brand That Owns Singapore’s Most Important Assets
. . .
etc.
etc.
etc.


I'll leave it up to your to read all about it, Kubli. . . con man
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 19:33:53

So your idea of contributing is sniping at me and posting: "Here, read this article about something bad about Singapore!"
Seriously? If your idea of contributing is starting up a flame fest then just get out. No one wants to read it.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 20:29:11

kublikhan wrote:So your idea of contributing is sniping at me and posting: "Here, read this article about something bad about Singapore!"
Seriously? If your idea of contributing is starting up a flame fest then just get out. No one wants to read it.

After 250 years of colonial rule, Venezuala spent the last few decades throwing off the yoke of imperialism. The US invaded how many times? How recently?

And you want to turn it into a commie vs freedom argument. It is so tiring. How about China? Communism didn't crush China. We crushed Russia
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 20:29:51

One of my former employees used to travel to Singapore regularly to supply hardware marketing support. Singapore does not have oil but it has a financial industry that is larger than most countries, and it consumed a large number of our NonStop computers for bankwire and stocks/commodity exchanges. This guy was not a very good engineer, but he was a great pitchman, and could give a PowerPoint talk like few others. He was a UK ex-pat from the Isle of Wight and the only one on my team who ever moved into sales - and he did so in Singapore.

As for the government of Singapore, the place was a benevolent dictatorship under the rule of Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, although nominally a representative democracy. He ran a remarkably clean city/country, because if you were observed littering or spitting on the sidewalk, you would be flogged. Remember the big stink in the US media when US teenager Michael P. Fay was "caned" for graffitti on some automobiles? Whatever the very common corporal punishment was called, the dictator ran a tight ship and Singapore - a tiny island with zero natural resources - became one of the richest countries in the world.

Venezuela had Marxism and Chavez and suffered - and continues to suffer - greatly. After Chavez nationalized the oil company assets within his borders, it will be a very cold day in Hades before any other country invests in Venezuela again, and probably never. They are on their own and sinking in debt trying to feed themselves. Chavez put most of the farms in Venezuela out of business with price controls. Chalk another failure up for yet another permutation of Marxism. In a few years, Capitalism may save their asses for them if they let it.

You'd think that all the US academic drones who favor the silly writings of Marx and Engels would note the real world failure of his theories over forty times so far, and note that Capitalism springs forth from the ashes of Marxism every single time.

Reality, what an amazing concept.
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 21:06:02

However, one should note that this index measures perception of corruption in public bodies. It does not cover whether is there actual corruption taking place in the public bodies nor legalised corruption such as paying public staff ridiculously high wages under the guise of preventing corruption to gain their loyalty.

One should also not forget that in the crony-capitalism index 2016 by The Economist, states that Russia took the top spot for its percentage of billionaires’ wealth coming from crony capitalism, according to data compiled by The Economist on 5 May 2016. Following close behind in second place is Malaysia. Singapore appears as well, as the fourth country on the list.

Definition: Crony capitalism is an economy in which businesses thrive not as a result of risk taken for them, but rather, as a return on money amassed through a nexus between a business class and the political class
Oh Kaiser Capitalism doesn't just spring up,it ruthlessly asserts itself via the power and sway of money. Communism is inefficient but Capitalism is ruthless. Just ask the impoverished class of Venezuela who saw temporary IMPROVEMENT with Chavez
https://www.thenation.com/article/why-i ... in-crisis/
https://www.telesurtv.net/english/analy ... -0035.html
https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/4064
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 21:58:15

pstarr wrote:After 250 years of colonial rule, Venezuala spent the last few decades throwing off the yoke of imperialism. The US invaded how many times? How recently?

And you want to turn it into a commie vs freedom argument. It is so tiring. How about China? Communism didn't crush China. We crushed Russia
Spoken like someone who hasn't even read the thread. Read what I wrote in this thread, then come back to me and argue against WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID.

onlooker wrote:Just ask the impoverished class of Venezuela who saw temporary IMPROVEMENT with Chavez
They saw temporary IMPROVEMENT from skyrocketing oil prices, just as they have for EVERY OTHER OIL SPIKE.

onlooker wrote:Definition: Crony capitalism is an economy in which businesses thrive not as a result of risk taken for them, but rather, as a return on money amassed through a nexus between a business class and the political class
You want to talk about Cronyism? Venezuela is drowning in it. Cronyism was a problem in Venezuela long before Chavez but things got even worse under Chavez and Maduro.

Venezuela, like much of Latin America, was afflicted by crony capitalists, who detest free markets as much as crony socialists. Cronyism restricted markets, weakened the rule of law, undermined growth, adopted many leftist "populist" policies to maintain power and favoured their supporters at all income levels. Free markets suffer under Crony capitalism.

Can we gauge the decline? The best available measure of free markets is the Fraser Institute's economic freedom index. In 1970, Venezuela ranked 10th globally in economic freedom; by the time Mr. Chavez took over after 30 years of cronyism, it had fallen to 109th place; in the most recent data (2014), it's 159th out of 159 jurisdictions. Both Mr. Chavez and crony capitalists attacked free markets.

In the 1960s, under free-market policies, Venezuela experienced steady growth, despite declining real oil prices. After 1970, as free markets deteriorated and crony capitalism increased, Venezuela's economy staggered. Today's disaster has decades of history, but Mr. Chavez took bad policy to extremes.

Supporters of socialism and all-powerful governments try to explain away the failures of such regimes. But failure is systematic. The cavalcade of excuses borders on fantasy and reveals closed minds. Regimes such as the Castros' Cuba and Mr. Chavez's Venezuela concentrate absurd power in the ruling "socialist" clique. Institutions that protect people, particularly the legal system, are made subservient to government if not completely destroyed. The economy is nationalized and politicized. "Managers" are chosen for ideology. If enterprises squander resources, hardly produce anything, and make things of poor quality, then tough – the people can suffer.

Compared with crony socialism, crony capitalism tends to be less extreme and allows some competition, but is still destructive.
Venezuela’s tragedy fed by cronyism and the death of free markets
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Re: Oil Has Cursed Venezuela

Unread postby Cog » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 23:08:41

The common refrain from the pro-communism contingent is that we will do it right this time. Always failing to understand, that by its very nature, communism is a doomed system by its very nature.
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