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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 13:40:05

You want to gamble fine. But surely some of you must know the stock market is a rigged game aND as always tended to inflate like a Ballon then pop. You play with fire you will get burnt
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 13:45:33

On the other hand, nothing ventured nothing gained. Nobody joins the 1% by hard work alone, if you aren't born into it, you are going to have to gamble, or forget about ever being wealthy. Whether flipping houses, playing markets or smuggling coke.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 13:52:27

SeaGypsy wrote:On the other hand, nothing ventured nothing gained. Nobody joins the 1% by hard work alone, if you aren't born into it, you are going to have to gamble, or forget about ever being wealthy. Whether flipping houses, playing markets or smuggling coke.

I personally do not seek to be rich. But to each his own
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 13:58:28

Me neither, my focus is another kind of riches, a Bible quote comes to mind, one I shouldn't need to write.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 14:21:55

SeaGypsy wrote:Me neither, my focus is another kind of riches, a Bible quote comes to mind, one I shouldn't need to write.

Is it something to the effect (For what does it profit a man to gain all the Kingdoms of the world yet lose his soul? ) I was bought up Catholic
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 14:54:35

Much more direct:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
. (Mathew 6.19 & 6.20)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:19–20
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 15:05:04

SeaGypsy wrote: Nobody joins the 1% by hard work alone,.
I personally know exceptions to that. Of course it was not just dumb effort but hard work intelligently applied where it would yield the highest returns.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 15:08:32

While not needing to be very rich or a one percenter I think any thinking person will strive to gain enough wealth to be independent in his old age, wanting for nothing and beholden to no one or no government.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 16:04:39

vtsnowedin wrote:While not needing to be very rich or a one percenter I think any thinking person will strive to gain enough wealth to be independent in his old age, wanting for nothing and beholden to no one or no government.


That is precisely what I have aimed for through work and investing. I'm pretty sure being in the 1% carries with it certain burdens to remain there. Is a twenty bedroom room mansion that much better than a paid for 3 bedroom house? Who is it I need to impress at this stage in life? To be comfortable is enough for me.

Yes the market is risky but risk can be mitigated somewhat by diversity in asset allocation. One of the beauties of capitalism is you can take as much or as little risk in life as you are comfortable in taking. That varies with the individual and what they consider the good life.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 16:34:40

If folks have gotten financially comfortable by flipping houses, even at a very conservative pace, it's still gambling. There's never been such a thing as a 100% safe bet, getting out of bed is a calculated risk.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KrellEnergySource » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 18:54:50

I always read these threads, because I keep hoping someone *will* come up with an economic system that works.

One view holds that the individual is responsible for determining how to earn a living and pursuing that. The glaring fault, to me, is that system in today's world gives us products that are incredibly wasteful of the limited resources of our planet. The 'successful' at this economic system then get to also have tremendous power to influence governments to set policy. Those not successful have a vote. Yay. Nice bone.

The other system addresses, on paper at least, a concept of dividing labor and distributing wealth. People could be told "no, we have no quota for inflatable penguins from China during this decade. We are going to focus on food and education". But then you get gulag's because people do not operate like a colony of bees and you have to do something with those that disagree.

What a hell the 23rd century will be, if we make it there, unless somehow we do come up with something that will work. The two directions discussed here clearly do not, long term with the stresses of population, environment challenges, and and the existence of the weapons arsenals out there.

Brian
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 18:56:27

SeaGypsy wrote:If folks have gotten financially comfortable by flipping houses, even at a very conservative pace, it's still gambling. There's never been such a thing as a 100% safe bet, getting out of bed is a calculated risk.

The same can be said about highway construction contracts. I was told many moon ago that as long as competitive bidding was used to award construction contracts that gambling would be legal in this state.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 19:02:00

KrellEnergySource wrote:I always read these threads, because I keep hoping someone *will* come up with an economic system that works.

One view holds that the individual is responsible for determining how to earn a living and pursuing that. The glaring fault, to me, is that system in today's world gives us products that are incredibly wasteful of the limited resources of our planet. The 'successful' at this economic system then get to also have tremendous power to influence governments to set policy. Those not successful have a vote. Yay. Nice bone.

The other system addresses, on paper at least, a concept of dividing labor and distributing wealth. People could be told "no, we have no quota for inflatable penguins from China during this decade. We are going to focus on food and education". But then you get gulag's because people do not operate like a colony of bees and you have to do something with those that disagree.

What a hell the 23rd century will be, if we make it there, unless somehow we do come up with something that will work. The two directions discussed here clearly do not, long term with the stresses of population, environment challenges, and and the existence of the weapons arsenals out there.

Brian

Welcome Brian. You crammed a lot into that post. I'd be glad to discuss one thing at a time with you but I don't want to juggle five things at once.
But again welcome we need new people with new points of view.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 19:40:33

Yes, nice points Brian. I have been pretty outspoken on these threads against Capitalism. To me Capitalism is the economic system that emphasizes growth and greed. This was tenable throughout our entire history as the planet and circumstances allowed it.

However we are now in the era of contraction. Our population has grown too large and so we are both out of balance with what the plane can provide for all of us and are incrementally reducing the capacity of the planet to sustain us. So some version of your second option of a collective with shared core values of sharing, responsibility to one another and frugality must take precedence in this new era. Or else our species faces total catastrophe. I would be interested in hearing your viewpoint
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 20:14:32

What happens if I do not wish to collectivize with you? Gulag or the bullet?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 20:36:02

Cog,

Answering your post on the previous page.....

Our wealth is spread out in a number of ways. Yes some is in 401k investments, but even that has been moved away from stocks. We have our Philadelphia brownstone with 4 apartments, and now finally morgage free. Then we have a piece of raw land, 168 acres in Cape Breton, and a nice little cabin in Newfoundland. Finally we have our two boats. Then there is some (very small) pension income and railroad retirement (think social security). And we have some savings.

I count us as a very lucky couple considering we are both divorced and only started out on this journey in our late thirties. In fact the totality of the assets are most likely MUCH less than they sound. Cabins, land, boats in total cost under $200k, far less than many typical houses. Nothing fancy here, tons of sweat equity, all paid for.

So, yes, we have some stock market exposure. A crash would hurt us, it would not take us out. The single biggest asset we have is our flexibility. We are mobile and have established ourselves in dispersed locations. Some through luck, some through planning.

We have places to go, places to hide, ways to get there even after a total market collapse. We value flexibility and have invested in it. In the meantime we are enjoying our retirement practicing our getaway.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 20:48:30

Brian,

Aldous Huxley foresaw where we are going back in 1932 and wrote Brave New World. It is seen as a disutopian novel. Yet as I now read it I wonder if he was not trying to point out a better future for us.

Yes there is much to hate in the world he describes, but the worst of it is already with us. The up side of the planned economy is sustainability. Folks are suited to their roles and generally find some modicum of happiness. There are no world wars, no famines, no genocide, no global warming.

We could do worse. At this rate we will do worse.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 22:13:35

And no freedom.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 22:17:27

Cog wrote:And no freedom.

Freedom in a diminished and ravaged world is pointless !
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 22:31:20

onlooker wrote:
Cog wrote:And no freedom.

Freedom in a diminished and ravaged world is pointless !


That is when it makes the most sense of all.
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