Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 03:39:04

vtsnowedin wrote:Do you have a source for that?
My experience is that a middle class mother works about half ofthe available work days from the birth of her first child until the youngest enters highschool. That envolves a lot of daycare.


The ave. income for most of the world is less than $10 daily.

Day care? Most are lucky if they can buy enough food and other necessities!
User avatar
ralfy
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5569
Joined: Sat 28 Mar 2009, 11:36:38
Location: The Wasteland

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 03:54:41

It would be helpful if you identified whether you are discussing the world average Middle Class family or one in the USA. There is a range of incomes considered Middle Class.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 09:00:04

onlooker wrote:So pray if you care Cog, tell us in what or where you have your wealth?
Oh that"s right in the ultimate Ponzifaux source, the stock market. Enough said


Because that is where the real money in the world resides. Its not in your piggy bank or the coins in your couch or even in real estate. The real money of the world resides in the equity markets. You are either in or you are out. The market makers can make the market move up or down or sideways. I am not one of them but sometimes I'm lucky enough to figure out trends. As KJ says, this is real money we are talking about. Perhaps the most real money there is IMO.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 09:19:24

ralfy wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Do you have a source for that?
My experience is that a middle class mother works about half ofthe available work days from the birth of her first child until the youngest enters highschool. That envolves a lot of daycare.


The ave. income for most of the world is less than $10 daily.

Day care? Most are lucky if they can buy enough food and other necessities!

Really Ralfy? When I'm talking about 57 chevy assembly lines being over taken by robots and day care you want to throw in statistics for Zimbabwe?
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:07:21

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:VT,
But you are not a true adherent to the religion. If you were your attitude would be different. You are looking for reason and shades of grey. Zealotry decries such nuances.

I try not to be religious about anything including peak oil. I do think Capitalism will always win out in the end as it uses human nature in a positive way. Communism on the other hand denies human nature and tries to reward laziness equally with earnest effort.


I tend to agree. It’s not always to our best advantage.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:13:51

Cog wrote:
onlooker wrote:So pray if you care Cog, tell us in what or where you have your wealth?
Oh that"s right in the ultimate Ponzifaux source, the stock market. Enough said


Because that is where the real money in the world resides. Its not in your piggy bank or the coins in your couch or even in real estate. The real money of the world resides in the equity markets. You are either in or you are out. The market makers can make the market move up or down or sideways. I am not one of them but sometimes I'm lucky enough to figure out trends. As KJ says, this is real money we are talking about. Perhaps the most real money there is IMO.


I think the concept of “real money” is quite debatable. Market valuation, for most folks, is just what the malarkey reports, which is based upon the last sale. It’s decidedly NOT a valuation of the corporations assets.

Think of it like food. Some guy A, living in a town of 1,000 souls, has a million pounds of rice in his safe. Guy B decides he wants some rice so pays A 10 for a pound of rice. That does not mean A is worth 10 million dollars. If A wanted to liquidate his assets he would have to convience every person in town to take 1,000 pounds of rice.

The stock market is a lot like that.

Of course it’s more complicated, just trying to illustrate why so much of our wealth gap is really just “virtual wealth.” Perhaps the greatest example are bit coins.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 18458
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 13:15:20

You know, as well as I do,that your 401k, IRA, and even your pension is tied to the market. Its as real as it gets for you personally. The elites, who are universally despised, won't let their asset be destroyed in any meaningful way. Oh there will be market downturns, recessions and even depressions, but the market remains. Downturns are the way for the elites to gain even more shares. If you study them and what they do, you can go along for the ride.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 14:40:05

You want to gamble fine. But surely some of you must know the stock market is a rigged game aND as always tended to inflate like a Ballon then pop. You play with fire you will get burnt
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 14:45:33

On the other hand, nothing ventured nothing gained. Nobody joins the 1% by hard work alone, if you aren't born into it, you are going to have to gamble, or forget about ever being wealthy. Whether flipping houses, playing markets or smuggling coke.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9284
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 14:52:27

SeaGypsy wrote:On the other hand, nothing ventured nothing gained. Nobody joins the 1% by hard work alone, if you aren't born into it, you are going to have to gamble, or forget about ever being wealthy. Whether flipping houses, playing markets or smuggling coke.

I personally do not seek to be rich. But to each his own
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 14:58:28

Me neither, my focus is another kind of riches, a Bible quote comes to mind, one I shouldn't need to write.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9284
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 15:21:55

SeaGypsy wrote:Me neither, my focus is another kind of riches, a Bible quote comes to mind, one I shouldn't need to write.

Is it something to the effect (For what does it profit a man to gain all the Kingdoms of the world yet lose his soul? ) I was bought up Catholic
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 15:54:35

Much more direct:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.
. (Mathew 6.19 & 6.20)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:19–20
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9284
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 16:05:04

SeaGypsy wrote: Nobody joins the 1% by hard work alone,.
I personally know exceptions to that. Of course it was not just dumb effort but hard work intelligently applied where it would yield the highest returns.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 16:08:32

While not needing to be very rich or a one percenter I think any thinking person will strive to gain enough wealth to be independent in his old age, wanting for nothing and beholden to no one or no government.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 17:04:39

vtsnowedin wrote:While not needing to be very rich or a one percenter I think any thinking person will strive to gain enough wealth to be independent in his old age, wanting for nothing and beholden to no one or no government.


That is precisely what I have aimed for through work and investing. I'm pretty sure being in the 1% carries with it certain burdens to remain there. Is a twenty bedroom room mansion that much better than a paid for 3 bedroom house? Who is it I need to impress at this stage in life? To be comfortable is enough for me.

Yes the market is risky but risk can be mitigated somewhat by diversity in asset allocation. One of the beauties of capitalism is you can take as much or as little risk in life as you are comfortable in taking. That varies with the individual and what they consider the good life.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13416
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 17:34:40

If folks have gotten financially comfortable by flipping houses, even at a very conservative pace, it's still gambling. There's never been such a thing as a 100% safe bet, getting out of bed is a calculated risk.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9284
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KrellEnergySource » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 19:54:50

I always read these threads, because I keep hoping someone *will* come up with an economic system that works.

One view holds that the individual is responsible for determining how to earn a living and pursuing that. The glaring fault, to me, is that system in today's world gives us products that are incredibly wasteful of the limited resources of our planet. The 'successful' at this economic system then get to also have tremendous power to influence governments to set policy. Those not successful have a vote. Yay. Nice bone.

The other system addresses, on paper at least, a concept of dividing labor and distributing wealth. People could be told "no, we have no quota for inflatable penguins from China during this decade. We are going to focus on food and education". But then you get gulag's because people do not operate like a colony of bees and you have to do something with those that disagree.

What a hell the 23rd century will be, if we make it there, unless somehow we do come up with something that will work. The two directions discussed here clearly do not, long term with the stresses of population, environment challenges, and and the existence of the weapons arsenals out there.

Brian
User avatar
KrellEnergySource
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon 31 Oct 2005, 04:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 19:56:27

SeaGypsy wrote:If folks have gotten financially comfortable by flipping houses, even at a very conservative pace, it's still gambling. There's never been such a thing as a 100% safe bet, getting out of bed is a calculated risk.

The same can be said about highway construction contracts. I was told many moon ago that as long as competitive bidding was used to award construction contracts that gambling would be legal in this state.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 20:02:00

KrellEnergySource wrote:I always read these threads, because I keep hoping someone *will* come up with an economic system that works.

One view holds that the individual is responsible for determining how to earn a living and pursuing that. The glaring fault, to me, is that system in today's world gives us products that are incredibly wasteful of the limited resources of our planet. The 'successful' at this economic system then get to also have tremendous power to influence governments to set policy. Those not successful have a vote. Yay. Nice bone.

The other system addresses, on paper at least, a concept of dividing labor and distributing wealth. People could be told "no, we have no quota for inflatable penguins from China during this decade. We are going to focus on food and education". But then you get gulag's because people do not operate like a colony of bees and you have to do something with those that disagree.

What a hell the 23rd century will be, if we make it there, unless somehow we do come up with something that will work. The two directions discussed here clearly do not, long term with the stresses of population, environment challenges, and and the existence of the weapons arsenals out there.

Brian

Welcome Brian. You crammed a lot into that post. I'd be glad to discuss one thing at a time with you but I don't want to juggle five things at once.
But again welcome we need new people with new points of view.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 14897
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 57 guests