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climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 18:44:22

jedrider wrote: The image of the American lone cowboy dies hard....


The main global problem isn't some lone American cowboy.....the main source of increasing CO2 emissions on the planet is new coal-fired electrical power plants being built now in China and India.

Global CO2 emissions went up 2% this year and hit new record levels. Why? More coal-fired power plants in China and India. And it was all perfectly legal and 100% approved under the Paris Accords----which demonstrates just what a total waste of time the Paris accords are.

record-global-co2-emissions-predicted-for-2017

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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Tue 14 Nov 2017, 14:44:55

jedrider wrote:
GHung wrote:What we need is for individuals to stop burning fossil fuels for discretionary purposes. I'm sure you are on board with that.


What? Get government involved? Only kidding, but that's what the opposition will say. The image of the American lone cowboy dies hard. I haven't seen a Western in ages, but the old folks grew up on that. As it is, the Republicans run a well-oiled indoctrination machine. I think that the Democratic indoctrination is, however, self-inflicted.


People of your ilk want to kill or imprison anyone who is using more fossil fuels than you think necessary. Tell me I'm wrong about that.

In fact we have a thread on this board that used to be named "Should we kill Climate Change Denier's" which was changed to should we "Imprison Climate Change Deniers". Guess even the admins realized it would violate their own TOS to have that out there.

Bottom line is you folks on the left want to bring the first world down to third world standards so that we bathe with corpses in rivers and poop in the street like they do in India. Just be honest about it.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 14 Nov 2017, 17:55:16

Cog,

There you go again.

You are wildly interpreting.

The world is headed exactly where you say BECAUSE folks do not take active intervention.

Your world view keeps running up against math and physics.

I think it is true that many folks can not completely come to grips with the inevitability of it all, but you have those same limitations. In fact, we are all limited in our ability to cope, we just do it in different ways.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Tue 14 Nov 2017, 18:43:43

Its not that I can't come to grips with reality Newfie, its just I don't see the same reality that you claim exists. But lets say for argument's sake that you are right. That we are all, meaning everyone on the planet, is headed for some doomy disaster based on lack of resources, climate change, peak oil, etc.

If that were the case, then I would advocate the killing of every single person outside of the United States so that we can keep our lifestyle. Think it won't come to that? If you don't, you have a much more egalitarian viewpoint of humans than I do. In fact Newfie, you and your other doomer cohorts, will be begging for it to be done before its all over. After all, its the doomers who are saying the earth can only support roughly 500 million people sustainably. Then why shouldn't those people be Americans?

One of my favorite movie quotes, from Three Days of the Condor:

Higgins: No. It's simple economics. Today it's oil, right? In ten or fifteen years, food. Plutonium. And maybe even sooner. Now, what do you think the people are gonna want us to do then?

Turner: Ask them.

Higgins: Not now — then! Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 14 Nov 2017, 21:03:12

See Cog, that’s just where you are so full of yourself. I think the majority of the posters here see that future all too clearly. It’s precisely because they see it that they are trying to imagine, hope against all hope of you will, some way to wiggle out of the conundrum. They hope for a different outcome. They see the difficulties, not completely, not clearly, but enough to know they are pretty nasty.

It may we’ll come to the scenario you describe. They just don’t relish the thought of killing all outside the USA as you do.

Now you may choose for defense the argument to let things take their course. But that does not absolve you. You CHOOSE to take that course and have as much blood on your hands as anyone. Ingnorence is no defense.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 15 Nov 2017, 13:39:16

The US and EU are going to be flooded with migrants fleeing climate disruptions in their own countries. Already we see that with Puerto Rico----after super hurricane Maris devastated the island many people had no alternative but to flee to the US mainland.

In 10-20 years we will see TENS OF MILLIONS of people being displaced by climate change and rising sea levels. Huge ares densely packed with low-lying delta farmlands filled with peasant farmers in Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India, China, etc. are going to be inundated by rising sea levels. All these people will all be desperate to migrate to a better place.......

IMHO the idea that the US is a stable island that can be protected from global turmoil isn't going to work out.

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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 15 Nov 2017, 13:56:18

According to Cog: "Liberals 'existential' threat to humanity!"
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Wed 15 Nov 2017, 19:23:46

jedrider wrote:According to Cog: "Liberals 'existential' threat to humanity!"


Bless you my son. I could not have stated the case more clearly.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 14:01:24

Some here have claimed that because there are so many of us and we are all over the place, we can't possibly go extinct. They should consider the passenger pigeon, which once famously blackened the sky with their enormous flocks and now are no more.

There's a nice article in the NYTs about some new discoveries about their history, but I don't have access (I heard it covered on the radio). Anyone that can copy some of the story at least from the times...it would be appreciated.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 15:29:11

dohboi wrote:Some here have claimed that because there are so many of us and we are all over the place, we can't possibly go extinct. They should consider the passenger pigeon, which once famously blackened the sky with their enormous flocks and now are no more.


The passenger pigeons were decimated at their communal brood sites. The juveniles were slaughtered by the millions and pickled in barrels. The Passenger Pigeon had a unique breeding strategy overwhelming their predators by their sheer numbers when brooding. They therefore required huge brood colonies. When these became decimated and fragmented the remaining population was no longer viable.

Now what possible comparison can we see on the short or mid term horizon that could have a similar impact on humans. The only one I can see is a pandemic. The rest of the threats we discuss here are systemic like climate change and fossil fuel depletion neither of which will accelerate to threaten our species with extinction. We might get hit hard and marginal areas experiencing a contraction of population but I don't see anything remotely threatening our species. Our lifestyles well yes. Our existence as a species? Hardly.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 15:57:34

Sorry, but I have to side with Dohboi and take a more pessimistic outlook. Look up everyone and really research what the greatest extinction event on this planet was like and what caused it about 250 million years ago. Also, note the degraded state of the planet which is fast degrading more under the impact of our huge population. As one stark example all the nuclear reactors left unattended after a precipitous downfall of civilization spewing vast amounts of radiation unto the world environment. Will all this necessarily cause our extinction who knows. But can it? I would say yes
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 16:21:05

Plant

It won’t be shielded completely but I don’t think we will be hit as hard or as soon as others. NA is still RELATIVELY resource rich and thinly populated. We will have some more time to adjust. Whether we do or not is another question.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 16:40:53

onlooker wrote:Sorry, but I have to side with Dohboi and take a more pessimistic outlook. Look up everyone and really research what the greatest extinction event on this planet was like and what caused it about 250 million years ago. Also, note the degraded state of the planet which is fast degrading more under the impact of our huge population. As one stark example all the nuclear reactors left unattended after a precipitous downfall of civilization spewing vast amounts of radiation unto the world environment. Will all this necessarily cause our extinction who knows. But can it? I would say yes


What is happening today as a threat to humanity that is comparable to the clubbing of millions of juvenile passenger pigeons in their brooding sites.

Nuclear radiation is not a threat to our species even if all the planets nuclear reactors melted down tomorrow. Huge increases in mutations and local die-offs are not the same as extinction. Look at Chernobyl and all the wildlife.

It's tragic if 60% of a population near a melted reactor gets thyroid cancer. But those 40% remaining can procreate fast.

We have become crazy on this site in the way we constantly drone on about our precarious situation as a species.

There is nothing out there that represents anything beyond nibbling around the edges of our over population in marginal areas.

There is nothing threatening humans on a species level at the moment and nothing in the foreseeable future.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby GHung » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 17:03:54

Ibon wrote:
onlooker wrote:Sorry, but I have to side with Dohboi and take a more pessimistic outlook. Look up everyone and really research what the greatest extinction event on this planet was like and what caused it about 250 million years ago. Also, note the degraded state of the planet which is fast degrading more under the impact of our huge population. As one stark example all the nuclear reactors left unattended after a precipitous downfall of civilization spewing vast amounts of radiation unto the world environment. Will all this necessarily cause our extinction who knows. But can it? I would say yes


What is happening today as a threat to humanity that is comparable to the clubbing of millions of juvenile passenger pigeons in their brooding sites.

Nuclear radiation is not a threat to our species even if all the planets nuclear reactors melted down tomorrow. Huge increases in mutations and local die-offs are not the same as extinction. Look at Chernobyl and all the wildlife.

It's tragic if 60% of a population near a melted reactor gets thyroid cancer. But those 40% remaining can procreate fast.

We have become crazy on this site in the way we constantly drone on about our precarious situation as a species.

There is nothing out there that represents anything beyond nibbling around the edges of our over population in marginal areas.

There is nothing threatening humans on a species level at the moment and nothing in the foreseeable future.


Nothing out there that represents anything beyond nibbling around the edges of our over population in marginal areas? I have to disagree. Humans have set themselves and much of the planet for the proverbial perfect storm if we and our technology can't prevent one of many potential inflection point events. Total extinction? Maybe not, but at this point in our history, a lot of things have to go right to prevent a lot more things from going wrong, and due to the interconnected nature of all of those things that need to continue to go right, things can/will go wrong pretty swiftly.

I expect, at some point, humans somewhere will feel the necessity to use nuclear weapons to defend their tribe or preserve some semblance of their way of life, or due to just plain spite for other tribes. Assuming that there is enough sanity among our specie to prevent that is quite insane, IMO. In short, at some point we are going to blow the shit out of each other. At that point, whatever bears any resemblance to anything close to modern life will go POOF. At that point, the biological mess we've made in the name of modern medicine will be free to wreak havoc on whomever remains. Any survivors will need to be tough and lucky indeed.

Virtually all humans are capable of hate, a form of insanity likely unique to us. Hate is on the rise, in case you haven't noticed.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 19:34:59

As hardy as a species that we are, civilization could clearly be at risk and I would liken it to the passenger pigeon actually, requiring large numbers to maintain itself. At that point, the environment is so degraded that what few people are left will lead simple lives at risk just like other mammals, even if they survive a bit longer. IMO.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby mmasters » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 20:41:38

What's wrong with a warmer planet? A few degrees warmer might mean different weather patterns, but who knows if they are better or worse. If you're stupid enough to buy a coastal property or live area that might be affected that's your problem. The planet has been through a lot worse than some extra carbon dioxide, life goes on. It is engineered to adapt.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby GHung » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 23:07:13

mmasters wrote:What's wrong with a warmer planet? A few degrees warmer might mean different weather patterns, but who knows if they are better or worse. If you're stupid enough to buy a coastal property or live area that might be affected that's your problem. The planet has been through a lot worse than some extra carbon dioxide, life goes on. It is engineered to adapt.


Bullshit. I've been watching my tax dollars go to repair and replace coastal development for years, and still am. Here in NC, years after legislation was unsuccessfully introduced to impose limits, coastal development has run amok. More bridges, sewers, utilities and roads for me to pay for. That makes it my problem.

But you don't really care about any of this, do you?
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 18 Nov 2017, 04:18:24

Mmasters is from the land of total denial no sense even engaging him.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 18 Nov 2017, 04:21:37

Okay, relevant to what Cog and Newfie are debating, I will be honest and upfront and admit that when and if it comes to this meaning lifeboat ethics, yes I would probably do as most others would and survive myself at the expense of others. But as Newf, pointed out, I myself from the bottom of my heart hope it DOES NOT come to that.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby baha » Sat 18 Nov 2017, 07:51:29

Ibon wrote:There is nothing threatening humans on a species level at the moment and nothing in the foreseeable future.


Not according to Guy McPherson. If the ocean dies and becomes anoxic, we will all die. I'm not saying it will happen...but the shape of the Great Barrier Reef and the Pacific ocean is troubling. When the ocean turns pink, you should start digging your hole :)
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