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THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 12:58:13

Newfie - "In a weird way you are a very hard line cc realist." Hell, I was a realist on cc when I wrote my first paper on AGW in the early 70's when I was working on my B.S. in Earth Science. Got an A-. LOL.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby coffeeguyzz » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 13:04:06

Rock
Your comments are why a 'bigger' view on these matters is both necessary and long overdue.

Heck, roads, sewage treatment, communal water supply, education are just a few of the modern world's realities that most of today's countries either have or aspire to obtain.

Unfortunately, the intense political polarization. Mis and dis information, public apathy, dearth of integrity, etc., have left electricity production and transmission in a somewhat uncertain state.

I would guess the increasing cost and precarious nature of this stuff will prompt more widespread public engagement.

Time's getting pretty short, though, in both Australia and New England.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby jawagord » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 20:08:00

Antarctic research station lost one of its wind turbines when the nacelle and rotor fell off, 14 years in use almost made the average lifespan.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-08/m ... ed/9130554
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 20:17:41

jawagord wrote:Antarctic research station lost one of its wind turbines when the nacelle and rotor fell off, 14 years in use almost made the average lifespan.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-08/m ... ed/9130554


Forty knot + winds for 14 years with sub-zero temperatures producing over 90% of their power on many days. Impressive technology, IMO.

The winds at Mawson are always quite strong at night, so they were up to about 40 knots, but that's not, by Mawson standards, especially strong."

Dr Wooding said the turbine was one of two on the station, but both had been deactivated as a precaution while investigations continued.

"We use turbines at Mawson to supplement our diesel-powered power station, and they can provide up to 95 per cent of the station's power on any given day," he said.

The pair of turbines had been in operation since 2003 and usually provided about half of the station's power each year.

"That's a good energy efficiency ... and cost-saving measure for us, but we do have enough diesel power available at the station to meet all our electricity needs," Dr Wooding said.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 13:08:27

coffee - "Time's getting pretty short, though, in both Australia and New England." Yep. And relatively low energy cost today hurt alt expansion. Which is why any economic leverage given to alt build out is critical. When the day comes when electricity becomes so expensive that the alts can stand alone economically it will take so long for them to expand there will be an extended period of suffering by consumers. As you say the long game plan is what is needed to avoid that situation.

Maybe in an odd way Texas politicians see that better then most. To some degree they see the future more clearly given their better appreciation of the future of petroleum. For instance a fair number of the Georgetown residents are oil patch retirees. Including the former Halliburton hand I bought my current home from. They see the future petroleum supply problems and are willing to pay a premium today to avoid such crippling future pain.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 13:24:24

Ghung - Given the cost of shipping diesel to the station I suspect their wind project was the most profitable alt effort on the planet.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 13:28:22

ROCKMAN wrote:coffee - "Time's getting pretty short, though, in both Australia and New England." Yep. And relatively low energy cost today hurt alt expansion. Which is why any economic leverage given to alt build out is critical. When the day comes when electricity becomes so expensive that the alts can stand alone economically it will take so long for them to expand there will be an extended period of suffering by consumers. As you say the long game plan is what is needed to avoid that situation.

Maybe in an odd way Texas politicians see that better then most. To some degree they see the future more clearly given their better appreciation of the future of petroleum. For instance a fair number of the Georgetown residents are oil patch retirees. Including the former Halliburton hand I bought my current home from. They see the future petroleum supply problems and are willing to pay a premium today to avoid such crippling future pain.


I entered that long game about 20 years ago. I figure the time will come when we need oil and gas for things for which there is no viable substitute (maybe not us, but our kids), and we already have other ways to generate electricity. May as well get ahead of that, even if it's not currently economically as competitive. Good to know at least some folks are willing to sacrifice short-term benefits for long-term security, such as it is.

I designed this into my whole home. Hot water? I have 4 ways to heat our water: Propane (least desirable), solar thermal, solar electric dump once the batteries are charged, and our wood stove makes hot water while heating the home. Same story with heating our home: Passive solar->wood->radiant floor->propane. I prefer to keep our propane for cooking and clothes drying what doesn't go on the clothes line, and have reduced our propane use to less than 60 gallons per year. None of this cost a lot with a bit of foresight, especially considering the solar energy is free for the taking when the sun shines. Redundancy helps if one of these systems fails or needs maintenance.

Too bad wind energy is a no-go here, eh?
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 13:37:47

ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - Given the cost of shipping diesel to the station I suspect their wind project was the most profitable alt effort on the planet.


Yep. I'm betting their next wind turbines will be even better, considering the success of these old turbines. I wonder if they dump surplus wind energy into heating their buildings. Easy to do with a few simple controls and resistive load heaters (which are essentially 100% efficient). May as well keep the camp warm and toasty while the wind blows. I wonder how many diesels they have gone through over those years.

I would have great fun crawling through their systems.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 13:47:12

Ghung - I suspect many of the "youngsters" don't know about the near military confrontation between the Texas National Guard and federal authorities 30+ years ago. Texas was running so short of NG the gov threatened to shut off interstate pipelines at our border. And thus was born a very favorite bumper sticker in Texas referencing our Yankee cousins: "Let them freeze in the dark". Not just a joke to a lot of Texans. One reason the Yankees should be pleased with our alt expansion. And our big lignite reserves. At least they have the Marcellus Shale...for now.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 19:36:13

Got to the boat today. Irene ate my wind gen blades. I had them tied off but I guess it was too much.

Anyway, need new blades. BUT Aerogen/LVM was bought by Jabso (pump people) who discontinued this fine product line. Obsolete. No spares support.

Thrashing about online trying to find someone with blades. I had a couple of spares l, but I need a full new set. DAMN!
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 20:17:04

Newfie wrote:Got to the boat today. Irene ate my wind gen blades. I had them tied off but I guess it was too much.

Anyway, need new blades. BUT Aerogen/LVM was bought by Jabso (pump people) who discontinued this fine product line. Obsolete. No spares support.

Thrashing about online trying to find someone with blades. I had a couple of spares l, but I need a full new set. DAMN!


How much for a new wind genny? Looks like they've come down a lot.

BTW: How do you get wifi into your boats? Above deck antenna?
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 20:54:24

Newfie wrote:Got to the boat today. Irene ate my wind gen blades. I had them tied off but I guess it was too much.

Anyway, need new blades. BUT Aerogen/LVM was bought by Jabso (pump people) who discontinued this fine product line. Obsolete. No spares support.

Thrashing about online trying to find someone with blades. I had a couple of spares l, but I need a full new set. DAMN!



Sounds like an opportunity to upgrade your blades to much more efficient types.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wi ... wind-power
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 14:02:21

Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 14:53:50

The wind gen is manufactured discontinued, no support. Most bits are pretty standard. I have spare bearings for instance. The BLADES? Nope, special, no alternate.

A D400 is $2k plus mount and regulation.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 16:39:43

ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 17:13:26

vtsnowedin wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.


I use a 450 gallon tank in our utility room to store hot water from the PV dump and woodstove. Pump it through the floor in winter for heat and a coil of copper in the top does our DHW. The solar hot water system also heats it. It's just a big tank full of water treated with an anti-corrosion additive.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 18:18:35

vtsnowedin wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.


Oil has some advantages and disadvantages. For one you can heat it to a much higher temperature without needing to pressurize the tank to prevent boiling. For another thing it is naturally anti-corrosive for the vast majority of materials. For a third if you choose a biodegradable oil form then waste treatment is easy peasy.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 20:10:47

Subjectivist wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.


Oil has some advantages and disadvantages. For one you can heat it to a much higher temperature without needing to pressurize the tank to prevent boiling. For another thing it is naturally anti-corrosive for the vast majority of materials. For a third if you choose a biodegradable oil form then waste treatment is easy peasy.

Being able to heat water from 70 degrees to 205F is enough for me. I don't want boiling oil or anything close to it in my basement in case of a house fire. If needed I'd use a bigger tank or multiple tanks. With water if you get a leak it just goes down the floor drain no problem. An oil leak not so much. And water doesn't cost $2.50 a gallon which is a lot of money to tie up in a way you can't use without going out of business on that system. A house in my town has a tank in the basement that is ten feet in diameter and five feet high. That is 3.3 million BTUs of of heat storage with an additional 750,000 before the house would drop below 40 degrees F. That is enough to last a week in mid winter in VT if the house is well built.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 20:49:26

vtsnowedin wrote:Being able to heat water from 70 degrees to 205F is enough for me. I don't want boiling oil or anything close to it in my basement in case of a house fire. If needed I'd use a bigger tank or multiple tanks. With water if you get a leak it just goes down the floor drain no problem. An oil leak not so much. And water doesn't cost $2.50 a gallon which is a lot of money to tie up in a way you can't use without going out of business on that system. A house in my town has a tank in the basement that is ten feet in diameter and five feet high. That is 3.3 million BTUs of of heat storage with an additional 750,000 before the house would drop below 40 degrees F. That is enough to last a week in mid winter in VT if the house is well built.


Oil has a lower heat capacity that water, 1.67 J/g vs 4.18 J/g for water. That means you can heat up your oil tank with about one third the energy to heat an equal volume of water. Effectively that means your system is able to respond more rapidly by reaching full temperature and then delivering those Joules of energy directly to the heating pipes you are using.

Who would ever need a thousand gallon tank for a buffering system? If your only goal is to store thermal energy long term than a water anti-freeze mix is fine as a solution, but if your goal is to make a liquid hot and use that liquid to provide dispersed heating to a home then oil will both heat and cool more quickly, meaning it will dump that heat in the radiator quicker than an equal volume of water which resists releasing its heat the same way it resists gaining heat on the input side of the calculation.

We went with forced air when we replaced our central furnace two years ago but we initially planned on a ground source heat pump using piped liquid to zone radiators that would have let us selectively heat some rooms and leave others passively heated through the interior walls. The options were pretty simple on the heat pump system, the ground loops were all stabilized non-toxic water, basically with a biodegradable form of anti-freeze mixture. Continuing the water system was the simpler solution and probably what we would have chosen but for rapid response of the base board radiators an oil system was optional.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 01:11:29

Why would you use oil if it has a lower heat capacity then water? The whole point is to store as many BTUs as possible and then use them when needed. For a house using wood heat such a system lets the owner leave for a few days without the fossil fuel backup turning on and lets him decide when during each day he loads the wood fire. The systems work for both baseboard hot water heaters or the modern in/under floor radiant heat tubes and can use tap water or non toxic anti freeze solution interchangeably.
I won't name company names but there is at least one international company that supplies these as complete systems. If they thought their customers would be better served with oil in the storage tank I'm sure they would offer it.
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