[KaiserJeep]

KJ
As you have said so many times over population is the problem. I don’t recall hearing any positive proposal to the issue from you, you just advocate abandons ship by a breeding handful.

So what is your suggestion? If you were King I’d Earth what would you do?

Yes, population is the problem that IS killing the current ecology and probably will kill almost all the humans on this globe eventually.

But there is absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER that gives you or Onlooker or anybody else a license to engage in the wholesale slaughter of humans just to preserve your precious lifestyle, your comforts, and your arrogant self-image as the most important person on Earth. You might think you are the one that has to live, that has the right to kill others just because they consume food and water and energy and all the other things they consider THEIRS and you consider YOURS - just because you might be starving, or dying of thirst, or freezing - but it isn't so, their human rights are the same as yours.

The present planetary ecology is doomed, just like the dinosaurs. I told you, it started dying 200 years ago, when the Reverend Thomas Robert Malthus published his theory of geometric population growth in 1798. The literature and scholarly works of the 1800's are full of discourses on "surplus population" and the like. The anthropologists figured out how elaborate human behaviors are the result of primate instincts in the 20th Century. The cheap energy of the Age of Oil allowed humans to explode in population to 7.5 Billion, on a planet which our best scientific estimates say can sustainably support a human population of 125 million (low bound) to 1 Billion (high bound). Then the environmentalists figured out that the Earth had been dying for a while, and published their findings, beginning with Carson's Silent Spring in 1962.

We've been talking about this for years, oil peaked about a decade ago, energy and all that wonderful stuff you can spend money on will steadily get more expensive until all over the world, people can't afford to live any more, and start to die. Those 7.5 Billion humans are causing that 6th Great Extinction, which you have been living through your whole life. The number of species extinctions is a curve accelerating upwards as the planetary ecology dies. I'm sure that you have all this knowledge, we have been talking about it for years.

If the Earth had a King, he certainly would be as powerless as we all are. But I have a suggestion that may make you feel better, although certainly it won't save you. Vote for Donald Trump again. He's just as helpless as any man, but he doesn't know that.

Game Over, Man.

There will be a few survivors on Earth, I'm sure. But it won't be a nice place to live anymore, compared to the space colonies.

[Newfie]

KJ
Show me one instance where anyone on this thread promoted wholesale slaughter of humans.

Sometimes I think these threads are like Rorschach Tests, you see something and interpret it based on your own feelings.

[KaiserJeep]

Point taken. We were discussing population reduction on a global basis, it is not impossible that the world population will voluntarily reduce birthrates to near zero in this decade. Personally I think that is virtually impossible, but I get the feeling that Onlooker and Newfie don't want to leave the planet and would enforce an involuntary reduced birthrate if that were an available option - which it never will be.

Now I'll remind you of the thread topic. If you're not in favor of an involuntary culling of 90% of the world's humans, then don't be wishy-washy or unclear about that, because I'll naturally assume those not opposed to such in fact favor that plan.

Education and prosperity are the two things that reduce birthrates in the Western World. But the 3rd World is where the population has exploded and there are not enough resources and time to either make them prosperous or educated. It's long past the time when a naturally falling birthrate as in the developed countries could occur for most humans on this planet.

Now we are running out of oil. As much as it pains me to say so, Trump's wall has a purpose, which is to prevent virtually all of South and Central American countries from ending up in the USA and Canada. The stable population will greatly reduce the need for both materials and energy, and the steadily rising average age of the population will reduce demand even further.

In case any of you hard core Gaia worshipers are waiting for a culling by disease, you can forget about that one, as well. The deadliest diseases on the planet have been contained and defeated by modern medicines.

I simply cannot see a viable alternative to having humans starve, either from habitat destruction curtailing food gathering, or from not having the FF's to produce food via mechanized agriculture.

[dohboi]

Thanks, Newf.

I'd bring up Bangladesh and many other examples where birth rates have plummeted without a large increase in per capita consumption, but as you say, people are just seeing what they want to see, so not much use further engaging in discussions.

[onlooker]

In the end we agree but I think I am more reluctant to lose hope and resign ourselves to a mostly "lifeless planet and having billions succumb and perish in a grisly manner. And yet I have been consistently voicing concern/pessimism of the entire gamut of our collective trajectory precisely because I know it will lead to the aforementioned events. What is maddening is I myself do not see either any solution

[onlooker]

Dohboi, problem is that in the link I will provide, even as the birth rate in Bangladesh has been declining since about 1980, since that time to the present their population just about doubled. This is the insidious nature of population momentum and the exponential function
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shot ... of-despair

[Ibon]

In case any of you hard core Gaia worshipers are waiting for a culling by disease, you can forget about that one, as well. The deadliest diseases on the planet have been contained and defeated by modern medicines.

I am giving away for free an idea that if somebody would run with it they could get very wealthy. As a gag you make up a
can of humanicide. Make it look like a can of raid except there is a human instead of a roach in the center of the cross hairs.

You list the ingredients as anthrax, ebola, and the strain of 1918 infuenza virus. Throw in a bit of flesh eating bacteria.

Put this product on Amazon and all those doomer porn sites. You can sell thousands of these gag cans of humanicide as Christmas presents.

Plantagent, your good at graphics...... go for it!

[Newfie]

Something makes me think such an”gag” would entitle you to free room and board for an extended time.

[Newfie]

KJ,
Population reduction is necessary and will occur. Our actions, BAU, ensure maximum suffering. No one wants this, no one knows how to avoid it.

What we are describing is a conundrum.

co·nun·drum
kəˈnəndrəm/Submit
noun
a confusing and difficult problem or question.
"one of the most difficult conundrums for the experts"
synonyms: problem, difficult question, difficulty, quandary, dilemma; informalposer
"the conundrums facing policy-makers"

Recognition does not imply approval.

This is a tender and hurtful subject. It’s difficult to gain emotional distance and rational appreciation of the problem. Omprehension and compassion are in order.

[Ibon]

This is a tender and hurtful subject. It’s difficult to gain emotional distance and rational appreciation of the problem. Cmprehension and compassion are in order.

On a hopeful note I postulate that the selfish, individualism, hedonism, narcissism, etc. that many claim has become more and more ubiquitous in our society is actually only a thin veneer. That once this conundrum manifests into consequences that increase the death rate of overshot humanity, that once this happens we will see an upswing of compassion and comprehension. Comprehension means wisdom, means understanding the need for self sacrifice for the whole, something that today invokes claims of communism. Tomorrow in the face of devastating consequences many will pull together like you see after hurricanes, we will witness altruism and brotherhood in the face of devastating corrections.

Maybe Trump is the last big ugly hurrah of narcissistic and hedonistic individualism, this last gasp of crass self interest, a cathartic puking out of primitive individualism void of feeling. Trump exposes the worst of the worst of primitive lizard brain selfishness. Once we get through this I can see the pendulum swinging, love fests on the street, black and brown and yellow and pink hands joined as we pull together to confront the horrific consequences of human overshoot.

I can see Cog lay down his semi automatic weapons and break bread with his muslim neighbors, I can see the day when democrats and republicans will build a wall together, not to barricade themselves from the destitute on the other side, but to hold back the rising seas.

I have a dream of a future of humanity rising with noble works as we shed ourselves like a snake of the label of Kudzu Ape and become once again an integrated member in the community of life in our beloved mother earth.

Amen.

[onlooker]

The problem remains that while we have this enormous human population we are drawing down non renewable resources, destroying habitat and continuing to contaminate the Earth. This is inexorably reducing the carrying capacity of our planet. And so combined with climate change could this leave too few enclaves and opportunities for humanity to persist? One outspoken scientist thinks so. His name is Guy McPherson

[Ibon]

The problem remains that while we have this enormous human population we are drawing down non renewable resources, destroying habitat and continuing to contaminate the Earth. This is inexorably reducing the carrying capacity of our planet. And so combined with climate change could this leave too few enclaves and opportunities for humanity to persist? One outspoken scientist thinks so. His name is Guy McPherson

Fuck McPherson. There is no giving up here. Why spew a message that it is too late. It is never too late. What value is there in sending such a message?

[mmasters]

This applies to a bunch of posters here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

[onlooker]

I think Ibon your reaction just demonstrates what a hurtful and sensitive subject this is as Newf stated. I know that the perception of no hope is anathema in your mindframe. But if this site is truly of any use on a broader scale it is to alert humanity to our dire predicament. So even if this viewpoint is too draconian too even be considered by many, it should be considered here as a possibility. I have learned from the links and comments from informed posters here of the great danger climate change poses to most of life currently on this planet. So whatever our species can do to lessen ultimately our impact on this planet should and must be done. Not just for the sake of our species but all other vulnerable species. We should apply the precautionary principle and assume the worse outcome. We owe that to posterity and the future of the miraculous things we call life on this planet. So you ask of what use was that previous message, well it can serve as a warning however unlikely it is to actually transpire

[Ibon]

This applies to a bunch of posters here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

An American icon, in 100 years he will be watched and quoted as a sage of his times.

[SeaGypsy]

Probably end up getting martyred by some sky god person, he's not popular with those.

[KaiserJeep]

It seems to me, I'm just about the only Forum member who has thought this through and has a viable plan to hang his hat on. YES, the unrestrained Kudzu Apes are reproducing with no real bounds, and killing the environment on a planetary scale - or anyways damaging it beyond the ability of 7.5 billion omnivores to live here.

I simply don't care how enlightened you are or how many hopefull articles you can link to on the information network. None of that excrement actually means anything, nothing is going to preserve enough of the global ecology for more than a few million humans to survive. Most of those 7.5 billions are doomed, and chances are that YOU and everybody you know will be dead. Because you see, having the foresight to have predicted the apocalypse does not make you any more suited to survive then the typical/mythical J6P.

This planetary environment is swirling around the porcelan drain and is about to go down. So, you want to leave before that happens. I'm speaking theory here, because if you are under 30 and not already trying to be an astronaut, it's too f'ing late to save yourself, we are talking about saving your DNA. So encourage your kids anf grandkids to get an education in the hard sciences, the biological sciences, mathematics, engineering, or aerospace. If they are good enough, they will have the opportunity to save themselves.

You don't need any long term plans beyond that. Get the f off this planet before the present benign environment turns hostile to Kudzu Ape.

[SeaGypsy]

More hostile than where exactly?

[KaiserJeep]

More hostile than the worst, most overcrowded places in Asia and Africa. Worse than anyplace where a civil war is going on, driving out refugees. In fact, anywhere you can think of including your favorite places, just with 90% of the food supply (at a minimum) missing, and where unwary humans are eaten by other humans.