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A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:19:23

Yesterday's conversation about changing the employment system to have jobs for everyone in a highly automated world reminded me of this thread. It is a good review of the topic to read it top to bottom.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:21:53

Some jobs require that you work 60-70 hours a week. Been there and done it.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:33:00

Tanada wrote:Yesterday's conversation about changing the employment system to have jobs for everyone in a highly automated world reminded me of this thread. It is a good review of the topic to read it top to bottom.


More time for checkers with friends.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:40:17

I was thinking about this. I mentioned in previous posts all the years I have spent in developing countries. How you see the under employed playing checkers or dominoes in open public spaces waiting for a temporary job. I was also thinking about the 10 years I lived Europe with those 6 weeks holiday... I was travelling on business so much for several years and deferring my holidays that I ended up once accumulating 14 weeks of holidays. My Swiss employer forced me to take them at one point. While travelling on business if I stayed the weekend those two days were added to my holidays. That is how I accumulated 14 weeks.

Here at Totumas we get mostly European guests who are on these 4-5 week holidays and they usually enjoy a 3-5 day visit. We also get Americans but they cram in their holidays to Panama on a 9 day trip, adding the two weekends to their single week break. They usually stay at most 2-3 days.

What is my point here? The more time you have off the more likely you are to enjoy leisure time. To be less harnessed to work. Those underemployed playing checkers in developing countries or those germans with 6 week holidays renting a Cabin here at Totumas.

For Americans with only 2 weeks many of them use that free time to fix their homes. They stay harnessed and tethered to a constant work load. What I was thinking about this is that this actually encourages consumption because there is no significant break during the routine of work to actually just hang playing checkers with friends or having real down time. This keeps a culture conditioned to work and consume.

When you open up significant free time this encourages pursuits that are not only about buying stuff and consumption but also encourages more time with friends, family, going for walks in the woods or what ever your hobbies are.

My conclusion here is that Americans, kept harnessed with no time off, in debt, actually forces them to high consumption because of the lack of serious down time.

The more you open up free time the more this decreases consumption. This hypothesis is based on the fact that consumption is often a compensation for something lacking and my hypothesis here is that what is lacking for many Americans is down time, friendship, playing checkers.

Does this make sense?

Checkers anyone?
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 09:06:40

What makes sense to me is Americans are the most productive workers in the world. Go be lazy somewhere else.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby GHung » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 09:57:41

Cog wrote:What makes sense to me is Americans are the most productive workers in the world. Go be lazy somewhere else.


Yes. Must keep the debt slaves in their cubicles.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:19:03

GHung wrote:
Cog wrote:What makes sense to me is Americans are the most productive workers in the world. Go be lazy somewhere else.


Yes. Must keep the debt slaves in their cubicles.


The only one forcing you to take on debt is yourself. Do you really need a $200k student loan to major in gender studies at Harvard? You can easily avoid that by simply buying what you have cash to pay for. Unless you believe bankers and credit card companies are holding you at gun point to borrow money. If you believe that you are deranged. Some debt doesn't hurt you as much. Mortgage debt is one of those, as long as you under-buy what you can theoretically afford and have some job stability.

Its been my experience that most people are debt-slaves because they are stupid or lazy.

I would have thought so called doomers and preppers would have figured this out by now.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby GHung » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:25:11

"I would have thought so called doomers and preppers would have figured this out by now."

I figured a lot of things out years ago, including you, Cog.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:36:18

Cog wrote:What makes sense to me is Americans are the most productive workers in the world. Go be lazy somewhere else.

What about balance?

Those jobs that require 65 to 70 hours a week (or more) that you cite, also can have very unpleasant side effects. I know, because I worked one for over a decade. At IBM, things got to the point around 2005 where instead of getting extra time off, if we didn't take our vacation (even due to work), we generally lost it. It got so that "vacation" was really just some flexible work hours, as "vacation" was far more than eaten up for mandatory overtime (for which "professionals" didn't get paid, of course.

In Japan I keep seeing stories periodically about some worker (often fairly young) having a fatal heart attack after some stint of working around 100 hours a week for months, or working several days in a row without sleep. Is THAT what we should aspire to? Having had some of those experiences (absent the heart attack, but with other health issues caused), I'd say no.

It would be one thing for people with their own small company who are making a huge investment in their prosperity for their career. It was one thing when employers used to treat hard working employees VERY well (this was the IBM I experienced in the 80's) -- now, at least in the US generally, not so much.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:48:20

Its called choices outcast_searcher not something I wish the government to mandate. If I want to sacrifice home life or any life at all, then it should be my choice to make. Perhaps I have a goal to retire early or make a purchase that requires me to work ungodly hours to achieve it. Then that should be my choice and not your choice or the he government's to make.

I've worked a lot at various companies. I took on every over-time opportunity I could. I did this because I wanted something later on. Its called delayed gratification. Something millennials and social justice warriors would never understand.

Go be poor or lazy if you wish. No one stops you and in fact we subsidize you to do so. But for me, I'll do what is necessary to take care of my family and won't ask you to do that job for me. If you don't like the way your company treats you then QUIT. That is your choice. Go find greener pastures if they exist.
Last edited by Cog on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:54:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:50:44

Cog wrote:Some jobs require that you work 60-70 hours a week. Been there and done it.

Or that would potentially make an awesome job for two people. They could average 30 to 35 hours a week, get a lot done during any crunch times, be generally rested and productive, etc.

The two main issues in American culture would be:

1). Most people want to make more money for the bigger houses, more prestige, etc. that's so popular in the US.

2). Employers are loathe to pay employee benefits. (Another reason for socialized medicine -- take this burden off of employers, and that's a huge savings on the ex-salary expenses per employee). So paying benefits for two employees when they can get by with one -- too many take the short sighted route now, as next quarter's earnings are key. (It used to be that good employers would look 5 or even 20 years down the road, and want to build good skilled, healthy, loyal, motivated employees).

...

Actually, as long as the average person could find enough to do to keep them from being bored, then as long as a sufficient UBI and social programs like good medical are in place -- given American culture, I think perhaps the robot army of workers can't come soon enough.

Just think -- if 80% or more of people have the same income from the UBI and no jobs -- look how much stupid social pressure and competition to "look the coolest and have the most stuff" goes away.

I was just discussing this last night with a couple of good friends. We were remarking how since we're lucky enough to be constantly intellectually curious, we don't often get bored as long as we have access to media and friends. But sadly, OTOH, it seems that a large percentage of Americans are "defined" by their jobs and get "bored" if they're not working after a few weeks or months.

Again -- I strongly suspect a cultural bias, and not a good one.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:08:25

Cog wrote:Its called choices outcast_searcher not something I wish the government to mandate. If I want to sacrifice home life or any life at all, then it should be my choice to make. Perhaps I have a goal to retire early or make a purchase that requires me to work ungodly hours to achieve it. Then that should be my choice and not your choice or the he government's to make.

I've worked a lot at various companies. I took on every over-time opportunity I could. I did this because I wanted something later on. Its called delayed gratification. Something millennials and social justice warriors would never understand.

Go be poor or lazy if you wish. No one stops you and in fact we subsidize you to do so. But for me, I'll do what is necessary to take care of my family and won't ask you to do that job for me. If you don't like the way your company treats you then QUIT. That is your choice. Go find greener pastures if they exist.

When employers are allowed to be completely unreasonable re worker rights, en masse, workers don't have much in the way of choices.

I never said anything about what YOU should have the CHOICE to do. In fact in the past I have commended your choice to work hard and earn a good living on these boards, even while many others have attacked or mocked you for doing so.

If you think I'm anything remotely like the SJW crowd, you seem to have completely lost your ability to read and comprehend, given my posting history on this site.

So in your mind, should we go back to the sweat shop days of the 19th century where 14 year olds are "free" to work 90 hour weeks in dangerous factory conditions?

Jump and down all you want -- I'll go with the 99% of folks that think there needs to be some kind of balance and worker rights, and that does NOT preclude you from working all you want as an adult -- or employers from making tons of money in profitable, competitive enterprises (that don't greatly endanger their employees' welfare).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:17:54

NO Outcast Searcher, the entire premise of this thread is for the government to mandate a 35 hour work week so someone else can have a job Screw that noise. The best decider of how many hours you work is yourself and your employer. Don't like the mandatory hours, then QUIT. Don't like how many hours of vacation you get, then QUIT. Whatever you negotiate, between vacation hours, expected work hours, benefits should be between you and your employer. The government has no role in that.

t read your previous post. You want socialized health care and well as a universal basic income. You are no capitalist, so don't even try the pretense of understanding a capitalist system. I know everything I need to know why right now about your work ethic. Move to Sweden and leave the rest of us capitalists alone to work our hours.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 16:12:20

About 10 years before I retired I started working less than 40 hours per week. First I moved to an official 36 hour week, while still working 40. That allowed me to take a couple of more vacation weeks per year. Then I moved to a new job as a part timer. Luckily I was able to retain full time benefits. I was mandated to work a minimum of 17.5 hours per week. At first I worked 4 days a week but later we coordinated our time to work 3 days a week.

I find reducing my work schedule was a wonderful idea. I traded more money for more life. Hours and days I’ll never get back.

I’ve seen a bunch of guys work well past retirement age. Invariably they have a pretty lousy home life they are escaping. Very sad really.

The 35 hour work week makes a lot of sense. It’s a very old idea well describe by Bertrand Russel as far back as 1935.


Suppose you followed the high productivity logic out to its logical conclusion. If you just simply consider people as production units and all you value is productivity then you must view most of our population as simply excess and broken productivity units. Like a Blackberry, something that should be disposed of. Since we now have a preponderance of high tech jobs the logical thing to do would be to eliminate anyone who can’t get a job. But in reality you could just be rid of most men as they are not nececcary for reproduction and most jobs can be done by women. And we can be rid of all retirees, their productive life is done so just off them.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 16:55:59

No matter how you slice it, there are winners and losers in society and the work place. Its always been that way. You can either bust your ass and rise to top of your chosen field or coast. I don't really care what approach you take. But the government has zero role in deciding how many hours I can work or not work.

Go be poor somewhere else. Life not being kind to you? Cry me a river, but cry loud, because I'll be too busy to hear it.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby marmico » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 17:10:23

How does this 35 hour workweek work when the private hourly workweek is 34.4 hours?

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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 17:31:31

marmico wrote:How does this 35 hour workweek work when the private hourly workweek is 34.4 hours?

Image

If I'm reading the graph right, that 34.4 average is for ALL employees, which would include those who work less than an "official" (or "standard") 40 hour week.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 17:39:05

Newfie wrote: The logical thing to do would be to eliminate anyone who can’t get a job. But the really you could just be rid of most men as they are not nececcary for reproduction and most jobs can be done by women. And we can be rid of all retirees, their productive life is done so just off them.

And you can be sure that Cog, as soon as the label "redundant" were pointed at HIM, would be all about changing the rules -- as long as if it were in his self-interest. (There was a terrific "Twilight Zone" episode about just that subject).

It's interesting to me how many younger folks (talk on the web like) they want to literally kill off retired people because medical care is expensive. Never mind the fact that the vast majority of them paid into the Medicare system all their lives. (I have no problem making medicare taxes high enough to actually cover the full cost of the system).

So the idea of killing off the old and the useless would have plenty of traction today.

If we're going to do that, let's let people know the score when they're 10 or 18 or whatever -- so at least they can plan their lives accordingly.

(And yes, Newf, I realize you are being sarcastic. My commentary mainly aims at Cog and his complete lack of empathy in any discussion. According to my favorite SF author, Philip K. Dick, he's not even human, since he (seems to) completely lack empathy -- as you'd expect from a robot.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 18:13:58

That’s a valid point. Yet Cog frequently attacks posters for joint there is excess population and that we “doomers” desire to off the excess population.

So it would seem he has a logical break.

Either that just a persistent desire to be a thorn in the side of cogent discussion.

Perhaps these matters bother him and his conscience.

Cog, to put it to you directly, to ask of you the question you have asked of others, are you going to line up for the recycling bin now that your “best if used by” date is past?
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Re: A 35 hour Workweek would create Millions of Jobs

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 18:37:08

Why should I Newfie? I have spent a life time working so I would not have to burden society with taking care of me. Meanwhile, there are the shiftless and lazy, my same age, who have never done a day's labor in their life. You want to put someone in the recycle bin, try starting there first.
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