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THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 03 Jun 2016, 22:59:20

If you are posting in my thread, at least read what I write please. You were booted out of the Philippines by Constitutional Reform, you are not allowed to have bases in the Philippines. There is no reason to believe you will have that permission again. Joint operations bases yes, independent US bases no.
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Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 04 Jun 2016, 00:20:48

Well anyhow, that Duterte seems awful, certainly a lot worse than an American military base.

Forget Donald Trump, Australia needs to worry about the Philippines' Rodrigo Duterte

A political hand-grenade has just been tossed into Asian politics.
Rodrigo Duterte's upset victory in the Philippines presidential elections will have serious consequences for how the region responds to China's aggressive claim to vast tracts of the South China Sea, one of the world's most dangerous flashpoints. ...

But Mr Duterte has puzzled diplomats with contradictory positions on how he would deal with China's assertiveness and a blockade by its coastguard of waters and islands claimed by the Philippines.

He said at one point that he is prepared to break with a majority of ASEAN members to negotiate directly with China, and would even consider setting aside the Philippines' claims to parts of the disputed waters in return for economic co-operation.

But nobody knows how he will deal with efforts to end one of the world's longest-running Muslim insurgencies that has claimed 150,000 lives in the southern Philippines, or how he sees his country's membership of the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade pact.

Mr Duterte's election is a setback to Australia's diplomatic relations with the Philippines, which became closer in recent years as the Aquino administration sought international support in its stand against China.

He rudely told Australia's newly arrived ambassador in Manila to "shut up"
http://www.smh.com.au/world/forget-donald-trump-australia-needs-to-worry-about-the-philippines-rodrigo-duterte-20160510-goqkyl.html


[edit: a lot of the above sounds like Trump.. "contradictory positions" and "has diplomats puzzled".. also, I didn't know Philippines had such a bad muslim terrorist problem, 150,000 people have been killed by terrorists? Is that how he got elected?]



Rodrigo Duterte lashes out at Australia after missionary rape joke

"This is politics. Stay out. Stay out Australian government. Stay out," tough-talking Rodrigo Duterte said ...

Mr Duterte's supporters swamped the Facebook page of the Australian embassy in Manila with angry remarks and abuse..

"I do not want anybody controlling my mouth. I say what I say and I've said it and if it does not sit well with you, that's your problem."
http://www.smh.com.au/world/rodrigo-duterte-lashes-out-at-australia-after-missionary-rape-joke-20160419-go9pg5.html


[edit: from the above article, "'I'd rather choose a bad joke than a bad government," posted another supporter."

Oh my goodness that sounds like the Trump stuff. :| Seeing it in the Philippines, somebody about fifty IQ points lower and more base than Trump, is a wakeup call a bit.. Trump's not that bad but yet it's the same kind of thing, Americans saying "I prefer his bad mouth to a bad government." Ugh, I hate this thread, it's the best argument there is to vote Clinton. :( ]

As things stand, it looks like Duterte is set to do a cold war game of playing China off the US allied bloc.. due to the strategic importance of the Philippines, the US and Australia appear willing to turn a blind eye to Duterte's human rights abuses:

US, China ready to work with Duterte

Washington’s stance reflects the reality that US national security interests will outweigh human rights concerns given China’s increasingly assertive stance in the region and the maritime disputes in the South China Sea, Asia analysts said.
http://www.mb.com.ph/us-china-ready-to-work-with-duterte/


Australia congratulates Duterte, says it's "ready to work with the new government:"



SG -- assuming globalism continues and the allied bloc continues, then really you shouldn't be for a weaker USA, and China wedging into places.

Because then what can happen is a country flips and goes half and half and maybe it could turn into some really awful place, yet nobody can do anything, because the dictator has the OTHER major power (China) in his back pocket.

One north korea is bad enough, we don't need a bunch of them on all our borders.
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Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby Loki » Sat 04 Jun 2016, 00:22:37

A violent mob went on a rampage yesterday in San Jose at a Trump rally. Looks a lot more fascistic than anything I've seen on Trump's side. I'm not sure if these good citizens (cough, cough) belong to Bernie or Hillary.

Peaceful Protest at Trump Rally, San Jose 06/02/16
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Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 04 Jun 2016, 03:43:13

Wow Loki that's looking really horrible.

Haven't seen you.for ages here, how's things? Still.dirt farming?'
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Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby Loki » Sat 04 Jun 2016, 15:30:15

SeaGypsy wrote:Wow Loki that's looking really horrible.

Yep, pretty messed up. The mob looks like it consisted in large part of foreign nationals based on the Mexican flags they were waving. I hope this sets back the amnesty cause another decade or three, and that Trump makes liberal use of the footage from San Jose to throw the Democrats' charges of "fascism" right back in their faces. The Dems, led by Hillary, are dipping their toes in the pool of proto-fascism. The next few months should be interesting.

Haven't seen you.for ages here, how's things? Still.dirt farming?'

Hey SG. I took a long break from PO.com, and internet forums in general. No dirt farming for me anymore, didn't feel like learning Spanish. These days I'm managing a little native plant nursery and planting trees while Rome burns.
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Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby Lore » Sat 04 Jun 2016, 15:42:01

Loki wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Wow Loki that's looking really horrible.

Yep, pretty messed up. The mob looks like it consisted in large part of foreign nationals based on the Mexican flags they were waving. I hope this sets back the amnesty cause another decade or three, and that Trump makes liberal use of the footage from San Jose to throw the Democrats' charges of "fascism" right back in their faces. The Dems, led by Hillary, are dipping their toes in the pool of proto-fascism. The next few months should be interesting.

Haven't seen you.for ages here, how's things? Still.dirt farming?'

Hey SG. I took a long break from PO.com, and internet forums in general. No dirt farming for me anymore, didn't feel like learning Spanish. These days I'm managing a little native plant nursery and planting trees while Rome burns.


Should be obvious, just pushback from neofascist Trump's remarks is all. If he put forth the same attitude against say Americans of Irish decent you'd get the same reaction from them.
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Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 04 Jun 2016, 21:14:44

Loki wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Wow Loki that's looking really horrible.

Yep, pretty messed up. The mob looks like it consisted in large part of foreign nationals based on the Mexican flags they were waving. I hope this sets back the amnesty cause another decade or three, and that Trump makes liberal use of the footage from San Jose to throw the Democrats' charges of "fascism" right back in their faces. The Dems, led by Hillary, are dipping their toes in the pool of proto-fascism. The next few months should be interesting.

Haven't seen you.for ages here, how's things? Still.dirt farming?'

Hey SG. I took a long break from PO.com, and internet forums in general. No dirt farming for me anymore, didn't feel like learning Spanish. These days I'm managing a little native plant nursery and planting trees while Rome burns.


Funny that about Spanish, here it's French up north & Hindi, Farsi or Arabic down south, to labor, Italian to manage. Lots of worse things than planting trees anyway. A brother of mine is into fringe urban native horticulture here in a big way. The bread & butter is still General maintenance of rich people's gardens, but a sideline in bush foods, aboriginal knowledge & skills he recently began is going well, starting to grow, it's at gondwanawalkabout.org if you like to see.

Of course Trump will have a field day with the footage of his people being bashed. Ain't this the weirdest US election ever? :-)?
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Re: Neo Fascism Rising

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 05 Jun 2016, 17:33:38

Some provincial governors have begun issuing large cash rewards to police for killing drug suspects, 3 weeks before Duterte is inaugurated. About 20 drug suspects have been killed by police in the last 2 weeks. On track for a full blown extrajudicial slaughter.
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:03:05

Is There a Personality Test for Tyrants, Fascists, and Authoritarians?

When you see Nazis in the streets chanting things like “Jews will not replace us” and throwing around slurs at blacks, leftists, and other minority groups, it can be difficult to comprehend why they would believe such horrid things. While simple answers such as ignorance or stupidity are attractive, they are too basic to apply generally. After all, the white supremacist leader Richard Spencer has a master’s degree, ruling out the explanation of stupidly in at least one case. While not every Nazi has an education, the root cause of finding such an ideology attractive must lie elsewhere.
But where?

This was the same problem that faced Theodor W. Adorno in 1947. A German sociologist who had fled Europe for sunny California during the era of Fascism, he and his colleges at Berkeley attempted to understand why a person might be inclined to support the ideas of fascism and authoritarianism. Using their backgrounds in psychology, they proposed that certain individuals might be mentally predisposed to support authoritarian regimes.

Adorno and his associates laying out their arguments and proposing possible traits that would-be fascists share. These traits included conventionalism, authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, anti-intellectualism, and an interest in the use and projection of power, among others.

After offering a psychological explanation for why individuals might come to have such traits, then proposes the idea of the “F-Scale”, “F” meaning Fascist, which attempts to indirectly measure a person’s tendencies towards the traits Adorno found to be authoritarian. The higher the score, the more likely you are to support Fascism.

Adorno was open about the theory needing to be tested, and at Nuremberg several Nazi war criminals were given the test. Despite the original theory having nine dimensions of the authoritarian personality, the Nazis who took the test only scored high on three of them. Continued research into the idea has supported the basic hypothesis, but heavily altered the test and proposed reasons for correlations between the traits.

While Adorno treated the tendency to Fascism as a mental disorder, his reliance on Freudian thought and the Western Marxism of the Frankfurt school to which he belonged made his scale seem biased, and later erroneous. The work has been critiqued from all angles, but the core concept has been found to be correct. There are certain personality traits which correlate and are related to potential support for authoritarianism.

The concept remains influential. The F-scale and it’s slew of personality traits have been reduced to three by Canadian Psychologist Bob Altemeyer, who has created a shorter, more accurate, version of the test you can take here. In the updated version of the theory the traits which constitute the Authoritarian Personality are:

Authoritarian submission: a high degree of submissiveness to authorities perceived to be legitimate.

Authoritarian aggression: a general aggressiveness directed at deviants, outgroups, and those designated to be targets by established authorities.

Conventionalism: a high degree of adherence to traditions and social norms that are seen as endorsed by society and the established authorities. This includes a belief that adherence to these norms should be mandated across a society.


Fascism Testing
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:38:52

My own definition is even simpler: A Fascist is one who desires to use the powers of a government to change other people's behavior, and to limit personal freedoms.

Greenies, gun control advocates, and anti-abortionists are examples of Fascists by my definition.

OTOH, there had better be a Fascist running your household, deciding when meals are served, determining the menu, and generally running things efficiently by curbing the random desires of family members. Chaos would ensure if the household members voted on mealtimes and menu and household chores were strictly voluntary.
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 04:12:04

The strange thing I've noticed about authoritarian personalities is they always assume the opposite is another form of authoritarians.

Whereas, authoritarians believe in a conformity around central values they assume to be recognized by all, or believe SHOULD be recognized by all, the opposite is those that believe that people have a right to believe differently, dress and act differently, to live and believe as they see fit. Freedom and individuality. As guaranteed in the Constitution.

They see such freedom and individuality as chaos and anarchy. And a threat. How many times have you heard from their mouths, "what if everybody decided to do that." "or live like that" "or look like that"

Authoritarians believe those that do not conform, should be forced to conform, or be excluded. And certainly DO NOT have the right to go their own way.

Why? because they are dependent on rules, structure. They NEED there to be a right way to dress, a right way to act, the right way to see things, a right way to live. Without it they would be lost.

Thus, true freedom and the right to live as one sees fit is an existential threat to their world. The answer to, "what if everyone did that?", is of course, the end of conformity, the end of a well defined world, the end of the rules to tell you how you should live. The end of the hierarchy by which they judge themselves and others. The horror.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8qkVA-1Uj0
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 04:59:06

There is apparently a certain amount of structural difference in the brain makeup between conservatives and liberals. Some seems to be congenital and some through cultural orientation. It’s kind of like the old debate about being gay; were you born gay or is it a choice? Were you born conservative/liberal or was it a choice?

The answer seems to be you may have a bias at birth that is modified by cultural and environmental factors. The bigger answer is that humans have little free will. Research is still spotty but wherever it is focused the answer is relatively consistent, we have less free will than we thought. And deciding to be conservative or liberal is less about what we choose and more about our history. And it can also be changed by cultural pressures, our need to conform, to fit in.

The traits of either side can be described in glowing or negative terms.
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 08:36:36

I think there are individual predispositions toward authoritarianism and also family plays a role. Where you brought up in a family with strict religious dogma or more secular?

As individuals or families may be predisposed so is the greater collective culture also at certain times more or less predisposed to the allure of authoritarianism. I think that is the most relevant factor actually at the moment.

In general those decades following WWII there was a sense of promise and upward mobility and expansion and cultural freedom. The foundation felt solid. The culture could afford diversity of lifestyles and thought.

Today simply feels different. Folks feel squeezed. I mentioned this in another thread. I still am not understanding completely the origins of this change but I think primarily it has to do with folks perspective of the future which seems to be closing in from threats like climate change, over population, rising empires like China, hordes of immigrants wanting in, etc. etc. All of this predisposes a culture collectively to want some kind of order, to shore up the defenses, to hold at bay the sense that the walls are slowly closing in. Not to drag in the Nazi meme as a comparison but the economic reality of germany after WWI resulted in germany feeling constrained. The whole lebensraum message then was that germany needed more room to expand and they felt hemmed in from structural economic changes.

White nationalism in the USA today which Trump exploits by demonizing minorities and immigrants and focusing almost exclusively on peoples grievances is working. There is tremendous energy in Trumps strategy, it has unleashed a cult like following that would have been unheard of just a decade ago. Many like to blame the excesses of progressives and liberals and idenitity politics etc. I am not sure that explains the whole picture. I think there is something even deeper than just a revolt of the other sides excesses. Grievances seem to run deeper than just being polarized against an opposition. You get the sense that there has been this pent up fury that has been building and Trump set this free. The scapegoats, immigrants and minorities and liberals are symbols of where the grievances can be directed just like the nazis did with the jews. None of the targets though are truly malignant, the threats are exaggerated and this becomes a feeding frenzy. Why now? There is a hunger in the collective toward hate and the authoritarian Trump is exploiting it.

Why is it that exciting peoples grievances works now instead of a message of unity?

Why so much hatred and intolerance now?

Pops brings it always back to the disparity of wealth gap. The middle class declining as the 1% grow exponentially wealthy. My problem with that explanation would be then why are they supporting a 1% sheister as president?
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 10:19:35

OK, Ibon, you have said it before, and more than once. The only problem being that in American Society today, it's not the 1% or the 0.1% or even the 0.001%. There are a double handfull of high tech billionaires riding the wave of cell phones and other mobile devices. Then the upwardly mobile segment of today's American Society is another 10%, about 35+ million people who have incomes and accumulated assets that put them in the top income and wealth brackets. They were explicitly defined in that The Atlantic article I linked to back in June, and we then did subsequently determine that the 10% upper crust includes you, me, and possibly most of the PeakOil members in the Baby Boomer generation.

Imagine that, most of us are in the American 10%, which IS the 1% of the world as a whole. Karl Marx would immediately and correctly identify both resort owners and retired EE's as the enemy of the people. Or if we lived in France in the 18th Century, we could look forward to a brief visit to the town square where they keep the guillotine for the aristocrats.

https://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/560222/america-class-problem/

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

Better prepare for the Tuesday work routine. I myself, in spite of my status in the USA's 10%, expect to have a sore back soon from pulling weeds in the backyard where we used to have a pool. I would once have used RoundUp on them, but I'm no longer comfortable doing that.

Still, one must never forget that YOU and ME are among the World's priviledged oppressors.

BTW, in case you haven't noticed, Trump has totally backed down from his rabble-rousing ways since the campaign ended. He is today being pounded by the rabble-rousers of the Left, to which we will add your name. As well as that of most readers of The Atlantic. The Trump in office only superficially resembles the Trump of the campaign. As I have told you more than once, he's actually a lifelong left-of-center NYC Democrat in his politics. Which is why I feel amusement when some members bash him, and others defend him.
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 11:16:12

KaiserJeep wrote: I myself, in spite of my status in the USA's 10%, expect to have a sore back soon from pulling weeds in the backyard where we used to have a pool. I would once have used RoundUp on them, but I'm no longer comfortable doing that.



Funny you should mention that. I am couch bound today as I pulled my back yesterday. On pain killers. My wife had to remove my socks I couldn't bend over yesterday when it happened lifting an old heavy bed. It sucks. Hopefully this will pass in a day or two\

Yes I understand we are members of the 10%

Can you address though the level of grievances in Americas middle class and how a significant percentage has embraced white nationalism? Even if they are in the 10%
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 12:22:19

I don't think they are the 10%. Most of my peers, at least in Kalifornya, are very tolerant and egalitarian. Nor (to add a second anecdote) are the Nantucket residents rednecks, other than in the literal sense after a day on those pristine beaches. Trump's trash talking crudeness was meant to appeal to the Lower and Lower Middle income classes, which really were what he needed to get elected.

The White Nationalists you mention are STILL largely spread throughout the American South, formerly called Dixie. I encountered some racial intolerance when we hosted long time family friends from Northern Virginia last month. It was startling after 32 years in Kalifornya, although when I lived there I might not have noticed. No, they are not White Nationalists, just immersed in the oh-so-polite racial intolerance of their gated senior community, where the only non-White faces are security guards and groundskeepers and cleaning crews. They were literally shocked at the range of skin pigmentation in my toney middle class suburban neighborhood. As well as being appalled that the closest thing we had to "the wrong side of the tracks" were Hispanic barrios and various flavors of Chinatowns (seven different Asian neighborhoods that don't mix, when I lost count and the understanding of why they hated one another). Those are all gang territories, with a bone chilling level of violent crime, and I pretty much don't go there. Jury duty is bad enough. But what we don't have is enough Blacks to notice, they pretty much all live in Oakland.

I think Trump is a typical NYC Liberal inside a trash-talking shell and with all too many subscribers to his tweets. I also think that he will have lots of emulators in the mid term elections. Unfortunately, the politics of trash talking and tweeting have lately replaced the politics of MSM sound bites. You are lucky to be sheltered from same down South. Here it will be hard to ignore. We are spending a few weeks on the island this Fall, and I will do my best to ignore the din.

Hope your back feels better soon. I have my hydrocodone-acetaminophen if needed, but I hope to get by with one stiff drink later today, and one is about all my stomach tolerates any more.
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cog » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 17:32:36

A nationalist who is white does not make that person a white nationalist in the pejorative sense. The actual number of klan and neo-nazis is very small in this country. I've never actually met one and I hang out in very conservative circles.
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 18:14:41

Ibon,

My only disagreement with your above posting is you cast it entirely in light of conservatives. The liberals own their fair share of this analysis. Note: not criticism, analysis. The two extremes are ripple gangers, each is reacting to pressures, they just whine about different injustices.
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 20:12:20

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

My only disagreement with your above posting is you cast it entirely in light of conservatives. The liberals own their fair share of this analysis. Note: not criticism, analysis. The two extremes are ripple gangers, each is reacting to pressures, they just whine about different injustices.


I have seen intolerance, arrogance and disdain on the left. Self entitlement. But the left in the US anyway is not authoritarian and hasn't been to my knowledge. Or?
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Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 29 Aug 2018, 02:09:26

Ibon, if you believe that, you haven't lived in California for any period. We cannot escape the endless liberalism-without-a-clue.
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