Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 14 Jun 2017, 10:45:04

Newfie wrote:Gung,
But you made a huge investment up front to make yours a low energy house.

The VAST amount of existing houseing does not meet that description.

You are describing a survivors solution. Which is smart and great. Good for you.

The folks I used to know and visit (in the mountain around here) who were off-grid lived a very very very different lifestyle. Non of the conveniences one associates with modern life. Mostly vegetarians who lived on nuts, seeds, stored grains and vegetables cooked on propane stoves. Real life hippies. Crap into a poo composter. (properly engineered they are very safe very nice :) )

My buddy held a reservoir party every winter. When the winter rains filled his little pond. He'd run his lights night and day. And blast music. The rest of the time he lived like a monk.
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 25599
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby GHung » Wed 14 Jun 2017, 11:14:37

Kudos to your friends but, except for the solar panels and solar water heater on the roof, our lifestyle appears quite conventional. Washer/dryer, microwave, dishwasher, big screen TV; all of the normal 'necessities'. My wife wouldn't be so happy with the lifestyle you describe.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1390
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 14 Jun 2017, 12:51:39

GHung, I was not talking about designing and building a new energy efficient house from the ground up. I was talking powering a typical US house. I'm willing to bet your average energy consumption is a small fraction of the average US house. Of course if we rebuilt the entire US housing stock to be more energy efficient we could vastly reduce our energy consumption, on grid or off. But that is a huge undertaking.
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3841
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Wed 14 Jun 2017, 15:39:10

Hey Kub,
You missed my earlier thread about renovating my house.

how-to-build-a-cheap-passive-house-t73190.html
I took a typical US house and turned it into an almost passive house. This should be code required for all renovations.

This was all part of the plan. I didn't even think about going off-grid until I was radically efficient. But like Ghung said, I don't suffer for comforts.

My house continues to amaze me. It's June 14, it's 94 outside, and I have the new mini-split set on de-humidify instead of cool. The house is 76 and comfy. The heat pump is pulling 369 watts.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby GHung » Wed 14 Jun 2017, 15:50:56

kublikhan wrote:GHung, I was not talking about designing and building a new energy efficient house from the ground up. I was talking powering a typical US house. I'm willing to bet your average energy consumption is a small fraction of the average US house. Of course if we rebuilt the entire US housing stock to be more energy efficient we could vastly reduce our energy consumption, on grid or off. But that is a huge undertaking.


I've never posited that all American homes could be converted to being entirely off-grid, but many could, and without the occupants having to endure long periods without electricity. A big part of off-grid living is simply behavioral; learning when to use power, especially when there is a surplus, and knowing when to turn things off. Our most frequent visitors are our kids and grandkids who have learned that leaving an unoccupied room with the lights on is breaking hose rules.
Other things like opening windows, being careful with water use, not heating more water for coffee/tea than you need, etc, all become habits. Of course, all of these things are good ideas for everyone. The difference is that when one lives off grid, one may indeed find themselves sitting in the dark at some point if they squander energy.
God forbid we need to turn things off when not in use. BTW: Most of our appliances and electronics have wall switches to make sure they are really OFF. We use about half the kWh off the a similar gridweenie home. Much of that is due to simple habits and behavior.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1390
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 09:12:56

Invest 3 minutes, it is worth your time.

https://youtu.be/8XYb7SEy4nY
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 13760
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 10:49:16

Tanada wrote:Invest 3 minutes, it is worth your time.

https://youtu.be/8XYb7SEy4nY


Yes, and we already discussed that paper in depth in this thread:

http://peakoil.com/forums/running-the-us-power-grid-on-100-renewables-t73499.html

....the conclusion being that a 100% renewable scheme is totally insufficient, unless we first reduce total energy demand by 5/6ths of the present level. This requires an extreme renewal of our infrastructure for transportation, industry, and residences.

It can be done, but we don't have the necessary desire to do so. So you personally need to be making such changes.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3907
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:38:41

KaiserJeep wrote:... a 100% renewable scheme is totally insufficient, unless we first reduce total energy demand by 5/6ths of the present level. This requires an extreme renewal of our infrastructure for transportation, industry, and residences.

It can be done, but we don't have the necessary desire to do so.


The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Its true that we will have a hard time reaching 100% renewables.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying very hard to increase and then increase again the role that carbon-free energy sources like nuclear and renewables play in our energy system, while simultaneously reducing the role that coal and other FF play.

Cheers!

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20107
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:40:06

Plantagenet wrote:But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying very hard to increase and then increase again the role that carbon-free energy sources


We'll never get there with Trump in office, which is why your support of him is cognitive dissonance in the extreme.
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:48:59

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying very hard to increase and then increase again the role that carbon-free energy sources


We'll never get there with Trump in office


You're right that we won't get there with Trump, but we didn't exactly get there with 8 years of Obama either. Didn't you notice that US Oil and NG production surged under Obama as the US embraced a "drill baby drill" energy policy and there was a huge increase in the number of oil wells drilled to frack shales across the country?----Don't you even understand that the huge increase in oil and NG production in the US we saw under Obama was the exact opposite of moving to a carbon free economy?

By not being honest with yourself about the shortcomings of both Rs and Ds you are exhibiting signs of extreme cognitive dissonance.

Cheers!

Image
:lol:
Last edited by Plantagenet on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:59:03, edited 1 time in total.

"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 20107
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:57:52

P - "You're right that we won't get there with Trump, but we didn't get there with 8 years of Obama either." Exactly. Wind/solar aren't so much a political dynamic as they are technical and economic. There is little any POTUS can do to have significant impact in those arenas IMHO.
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 10233
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 18:37:05

I'm not sure who you want to push you in what direction but I'm doing the pushing for myself. Relying on TPTB to even influence your problems is a recipe for disaster.

Take charge and do it yourself. I don't even preach paths. Just pick one and get on with it...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 22:35:04

baha - "Take charge and do it yourself." So true: exactly what Texas did with wind power and now beginning to do with solar. :?: We didn't beg the feds to fix our grid so it could disburse wind power across the state: we spent $7 billion in tax payer money to get it done. That was a serious commitment to the alt energy path. And the result...a few years o!d but still makes the point:

"In Texas natural gas production from shale formations more than tripled from 2007 to 2013. Not surprisingly, natural gas is already the primary source of electricity in Texas, having long since eclipsed coal.

Aside from being the largest producer of natural gas in the country, Texas is also one of the largest wind producing regions in the entire world. Texas now gets approximately 10% of its electricity from wind power. Several years ago, the state literally had more wind power than it could use. West Texas wind turbines at times produced more electricity than could efficiently.
This resulted in ‘curtailments’ in which wind power was removed from the grid to prevent imbalances of supply and demand that could destabilize the grid. With the state’s grid upgrade it now has the power lines required to move West Texas wind more easily to the population centers in the eastern part of the state. As a result, curtailments have gone from 17% of the state’s wind capacity in 2007 to basically zero in 2014.

The result is not only having more NG to sell to consumers in other states (and to export to Mexico) we avoided the expense of building new NG and coal fired plants to meet our growing electricity demand.

And thanks to natural gas AND wind/solar: Coal was once responsible for nearly 40 percent of the total energy generated in Texas a decade ago, a figure that has dropped to 25 percent in the first half of 2016. Which helps to prevent a pending big battle between the state and the feds over coal generated pollution.

And what did our tax payers get in return for their $7 billion grid upgrade? Besides world class wind generation solar is also starting to have an impact. Texas is seeing some of the cheapest utility-scale solar prices in the U.S. Increased solar build out aided by the grid upgrade already done for the sake of wind power. Although there is less than 1 gigawatt of solar in Texas today, capacity is expected to quadruple by 2020. Texas grid operator ERCOT has outlined a scenario where solar could make up as much as 17 percent of capacity by 2030, largely replacing retired coal. Particularly beneficial during the very hot DAY TIME periods in the summer when AC demand spikes.

And when ever grid scale storage becomes economic Texas will already have the wind, solar and grid infrastructure already in place to take advantage of it. IOW we've avoided the chicken/egg problem most other states are faced with: Texas didn't wait for the intermittency problem to be solved. Again, a big commitment to the alt path.

Whether anyone else agreed that it was a good path chosen or not at the time, 10 years ago pick that path to go down and has never had a reason to look back.
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 10233
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 23:36:38

Rockman should stay out of AGW discussions. A man who makes his living pushing fossil-fuels is not objective.
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 29 Jul 2017, 03:26:12

asg70 wrote:Rockman should stay out of AGW discussions. A man who makes his living pushing fossil-fuels is not objective.


Rockman brings an industry prospective that is appreciated around here. He happens to be a believer in AGW, if you did not know. He is more objective than most AGW fanboys.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3907
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 29 Jul 2017, 05:23:10

KJ +1
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 29 Jul 2017, 11:30:59

70 - "A man who makes his living pushing fossil-fuels is not objective." What a bizarre statement. I guess you missed my post where I detailed reports on AGW and climate change I wrote in the early 70's while working on my BS degree in Earth Sciences. Maybe before you were born. LOL. But it shouldn't be a big surprise that someone who has studied in detail huge climate change scenarios that have happened on this planet over the last few billion years. Thus it's not difficult for the Rockman to appreciate the relatively minor climate changes man's consumption of fossil fuels could be bringing about.

As far as my career goes I'm moderately proud of the tiny bit I've contributed to our country's growth. But are you equally proud of you contributions with the rest of the gluttonous US fossil fuel consumers? Consumets who have DIRECTLY generated most of the GHG produced in the US? In the US that consumes a very disproportionate amount of the world's oil? Consumers that encouraged the acquisition of ff resources from 3rd world countries instead of letting them use them to grow their own economies? You and the other consumers that have paid the Rockman and his cohorts to produced those ff? You and the other consumers who have funded a govt that has brought about the deaths of thousands of our military and tens of thousands of civilians in efforts to stabilize regions that supply them and the rest of world with oil?

No responsibility? No shame? At all??? That's a tad difficult to appreciate. Maybe you're still in the denial mode the A-man continues to suffer from. If so I do understand you efforts to difflect your share of the responsibility for the f*cked up condition of the planet. LOL
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 10233
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Tue 01 Aug 2017, 15:27:24

This is the world I live in. Here is an invitation to an inverter manufacturer (SMA) training and propaganda tour. http://www.sma-america.com/smaroadshow.html

I don't make this stuff up...it is called the 'Plug and Play' tour. This is not 'pie in the sky' this is here and now.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Previous

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests