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THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 24 May 2017, 21:28:45

Anyone who thinks that merely switching to another -ism (like communism) will solve limits to growth is an idiot, plain and simple. The environmental record of the soviet union or china is abysmal (Chernobyl anyone?) Just because they didn't have Wal-Marts doesn't mean communism wouldn't kill the planet. Maybe it would take longer, but we'd get there eventually.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 25 May 2017, 02:00:05

asg70 is correct. We are screwed, blued, and tattooed because apes do not restrain their reproduction rates. There are far far too many people and not enough stuff. The presence of our food species, both animal and plant, is even more disruptive than the human animals themselves.

There will be war. Possibly an apocalyptic war.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 25 May 2017, 07:50:09

KaiserJeep wrote:asg70 is correct. We are screwed, blued, and tattooed because apes do not restrain their reproduction rates. There are far far too many people and not enough stuff. The presence of our food species, both animal and plant, is even more disruptive than the human animals themselves.


I still grapple with this question about our fecundity and ever being able to self regulate our numbers. We evolved where our reproductive limits where set by nature so all we ever did was reproduce when the times were good and contract and die-off during lean times. This ebb and flow was the rhythm set by nature. It is fundamental to our species and all species.

Now we our masters of the universe so we believe, harnessing power and extracting the planets resources in every nook and cranny, this wholesale recycling plundering natural ecosystems and their biomass and converting it over to humans and their crops and livestock. With no sense of balance or set of limits as to what and how much we consume and to what limits we breed.

Take a moment and look at this fresh from an ecological perspective and forget a moment about communism or capitalism and just sit still and meditate on this conundrum of our biology for awhile and give yourself permission in an unbiased way to imagine a way that we could ever one day self regulate within a cultural, religious, economic and governing system that would somehow keep us in a steady state so that we can break these bonds that have held us in these endless cycles of population bloom and then die-off and decline. Over and over again this cycle has repeated itself in all the civilizations to date. Ours seems to be no different. Only the scale is different.

With secular science and reason and the age of enlightenment one would think that we could regulate ourselves in the same way as we regulate our environment. We cannot apply to ourselves the management skills that we use when managing crops or industrial processes or technology.

We can design and program in the most sophisticated way intelligent devices and yet fail completely to recognize that we need to do the same for managing our own species.

This failure will be our demise and force us once again to be plowed under in this cycle of rise and decline. I don't see us breaking this bond this time around. I don't have any idea what will rise out of the ashes of our declining civilization.

Sometimes I hold out still that the consequences of this decline may plant the seeds of some new spiritual or religious foundation that would hold us to a set of sustainable commandments.

I just don't know any more and have gotten to a place that I accept this.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 25 May 2017, 08:17:50

We aren't limited to the environment we happen to find ourselves in like the lower animals of the field. We can harvest things, like oil, gas, and coal and improve our abilities to reproduce in large quantities. Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal. We are special and unique on the whole planet and we can manipulate the environment and exploit resources to suit ourselves.

I'm not blind to the fact there are actual physical limits to human's ability to exploit the planet but we aren't there yet and likely won't be for quite some time.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 25 May 2017, 09:17:14

Cog wrote:We aren't limited to the environment we happen to find ourselves in like the lower animals of the field. We can harvest things, like oil, gas, and coal and improve our abilities to reproduce in large quantities. Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal. We are special and unique on the whole planet and we can manipulate the environment and exploit resources to suit ourselves.


The exploitation part is clear. It is in our inability to self regulate that we are like all other species.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 25 May 2017, 10:41:55

EXACTLY! Stop trying to make out how exceptional we are, humans are just a SLIGHTLY smarter ape. All the rules that apply to all the rest of the animal species apply to us as well.

Cog, you are very much in touch with our instinctual animal behavioir. Probably the poster most in tune with the animal urges. The one who sees the world most clearly through instinctual eyes.

You of all folks should deeply understand just how animal we are. Just how unexceptional. How instinctual.

That's what makes your posts refreshing, and disturbing, you channel the survival instinct within us all.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 25 May 2017, 10:46:21

Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal.--We are like other animals in the sense of being biological beings who require are certain parameter range of conditions on this planet to survive. And we are in the process of destabilizing those conditions.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 25 May 2017, 13:30:57

onlooker wrote:Stop trying to make humans just like any other animal.


Where you come in is there is a moral tinge to your ideology. Man's inhumanity to man. The powerful subjugating the weak. Well, sorry to break it to you, but that's the natural order of things too. Everything down to deer locking antlers to compete for mating. Nature is amoral. Morality is a construct of the human brain mostly designed to facilitate cooperation within the narrow constraints of family and tribe which is why prejudice exists, why wars happen, why Manchester happened. I don't LIKE this state of affairs, but it it is what it is. We're not designed to live in harmony on this planet, billions strong, highly diverse, elbow to elbow. We're designed to function in little tribal bands that kick the shit out of each other every time we cross paths, like chimpanzees.
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 25 May 2017, 14:23:59

In fact, modern anthropology and neuroscience show that cooperation, group identity, and a sense of fair play are defining features of humanity

In contrast to chimpanzees, who are obsessed with competing against each other, humans evolved to become the most cooperative of primates through our ability to share intentions with each other, while recognizing that others see the world from different perspectives. This enabled early humans to work collaboratively on complex tasks, creating communities with shared values and practices that became the basis for culture and civilization.

Genes are fundamentally selfish:
New foundation: Nature is a network
This has been extensively discredited as a simplistic interpretation of evolution. In its place, biologists are developing a more sophisticated view of evolution as a series of complex, interlocking systems, where the gene, organism, community, species, and environment all interact with each other, both competitively and cooperatively

[quote]Rather than a battleground of “selfish genes” competing to outperform one another, modern biologists offer a new view of nature as a web of networked systems, dynamically optimizing at different levels of evolutionary selection. This recognition that cooperative networking is an essential part of sustainable ecosystems can inspire new ways to structure human technology and social organization for future flourishing.[/quote
Asg, people I presume have been debating morality since we mastered language and I assume we will continue for as long as we exist
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 26 May 2017, 09:08:03

onlooker wrote:cooperation, group identity, and a sense of fair play are defining features of humanity


You mean like we see in suicide bombers and serial killers?

This enabled early humans to work collaboratively on complex tasks, creating communities with shared values and practices that became the basis for culture and civilization.


Keyword = early civilization. Tribalism, a two-edged sword.

web of networked systems


You mean like ISIS cells?
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Re: THE Capitalism Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Fri 07 Jul 2017, 07:57:40

Trump economy still booming away. Jobs added and wages up too.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/07/busi ... yment.html

The labor market roared back in June, with a hefty monthly gain in jobs, and revisions that added 47,000 more jobs to April and May than previously reported. Over the past three months, job gains have averaged 194,000 a month.
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