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THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 18 Apr 2017, 12:35:23

ROCKMAN wrote:An update for folks that continually pooh-pooh wind power:

In Texas 25% of the electricity consumed last March was supplied by wind power according to the Electric Reliability Council of Texas. That was the biggest share ever for renewables in the Lone Star State. And now solar is beginning to boom in Texas.

And remember two important aspects. First, Texas consumes more electricity then any other state. In fact 50% more then #2 CA. Second, Texas wind power growth was based solely on its economic viability. Essentially the public in Texas feels no obligation to reduce GHG generation: if wind had not expanded we would have just burned more NG and lignite. Texas didn't wait like so many others for commercial storage systems to become economic: it maintained its fossil fuel burners to deal with any intermittency issues.

Obvious, under the right physical and economic conditions alternative energy source can be very viable.


I think wind power is a wonderful supplement to baseliad power. In fact I advocate my municipalty to install a couple of them here where it is frequently.

The problem is the large number of folks who insist it can be baseliad power independent of other sources. Those baseload plants have to make a profit or they get removed.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 18 Apr 2017, 12:47:21

kublikhan wrote:Batteries make up a tiny fraction of grid energy storage. Much more energy is stored with pumped storage:

Sure. And that makes sense, just like at this point ICE's are about 99% of the auto fleet.

Things will only change when the economics makes sense (since politicians aren't apparently going to pass meaningful CO2 taxes to INCENT things to change).

But pumped storage likely only makes sense where you have some scale or in rural areas where people have ponds, etc.

If a Tesla Powerwall like thing gets cheaper over the next decade, then when it's time to replace my whole-house NG generator, I'll seriously consider the Powerwall system -- INCLUDING its cost and its capacity. (Since the main scenario I'm concerned about is long outages caused by things like ice storms, so I may need to run sump pumps a lot for days, or there was little point in getting the generator, at least for my situation.)

I can imagine this kind of thing being the case for MANY small businesses and homeowners, for whom setting up and maintaining pumped storage just isn't economically practical.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Squilliam » Tue 18 Apr 2017, 16:19:40

http://www.em6live.co.nz/

This is the current generation profile for my country. It's pretty interesting to look at sometimes because it shows what proportion of each generation type are being used to generate power. Our baseload is actually geothermal, so we have plenty of choices with respect to eliminating that last fraction of gas power.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 10:45:33

S - Yes indeed, anyone with shallow geothermal is truly blessed. Even more so further down the PO path we're on. Years ago I was lucky enough to cruise up the river and walk along hot springs at Rotorua. Not Yellowstone Park but still fun. I was also once lucky enough to be misted on by a geyser in Iceland (the name of which was actually "Geysir"...the Geysir geyser) and then had a soak in the "Blue Lagoon".

For trivia fans: geyser - From Icelandic Geysir, name of a hot spring in the valley of Haukadal, literally "the gusher," from Old Norse geysa "to gush," from Proto-Germanic *gausjan, from PIE *gheus-, from root *gheu- "to pour".
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 13:56:05

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
kublikhan wrote:Batteries make up a tiny fraction of grid energy storage. Much more energy is stored with pumped storage:

Sure. And that makes sense, just like at this point ICE's are about 99% of the auto fleet.

Things will only change when the economics makes sense (since politicians aren't apparently going to pass meaningful CO2 taxes to INCENT things to change).

But pumped storage likely only makes sense where you have some scale or in rural areas where people have ponds, etc.

If a Tesla Powerwall like thing gets cheaper over the next decade, then when it's time to replace my whole-house NG generator, I'll seriously consider the Powerwall system -- INCLUDING its cost and its capacity. (Since the main scenario I'm concerned about is long outages caused by things like ice storms, so I may need to run sump pumps a lot for days, or there was little point in getting the generator, at least for my situation.)

I can imagine this kind of thing being the case for MANY small businesses and homeowners, for whom setting up and maintaining pumped storage just isn't economically practical.
I agree that battery storage is going to increase going forward. The OP had expressed concern that our ultimate grid storage potential was limited because of the resource availability to build batteries. My post was meant to demonstrate that we are using other methods of storage besides batteries, especially on the large scale the OP mentioned. Not to disparage batteries as a storage option.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby cephalotus » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 16:36:03

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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 20:59:47

I've been pretty hard on wind power due to my personal experiences with it. We have an AeroGen6 generator, an older model but well respected. I think they were more European. We got our with our boat and had no manuals.

This spring while in the Bahamas we had several days of consistent heavy wind and I was able to figure out there was something wrong with the way the units controller/regulator was wired. When I fixed that the unit performed much better and has been producing the bulk of our energy since. Still tonight I had to run the generator.

Last summer I had to take the generator down and I left it on the deck for a few months. Somehow the alternator compartment managed to fill up with rain water. I drained it, sun dried it, soaked it with WD40 and reinstalled. It seems none the worse for the ware.

The difference from using it in Delaware And the Bahamas is that here it was much more exposed to open ocean winds and that the winds have been blowing hard for months on end. Back in Florida, in a bay, its contribution has immediately and significantly dropped. Even when I had this unit in Newfoundland we didn't have sufficiently SUSTAINED high winds to allow the troubleshooting I was finally able to do here.

So I'm now going to reverse my earlier opinion and say that we're it to fail I would replace it, especially if I could replace it in kind.

I see a lot of other boats with newer design units and typically they are feathered, not in use. I think most folks find them too noisey. They put out an annoying whine. Ours is very quiet by comparison, and much simpler. And apparently quite rugged.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 22:35:45

Newfie - I don't know anything about small personal wind power but I suspect they are not close to the efficiency of commercial scale. In fact I haven't seen even small commercial wind done in Texas: all have been very big installations.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 13:07:15

Yup, probably true. But the only things I can effect are in the small personal scale. So here I am.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 13:51:40

Newfie - Now that you got me thinking about it there's more personal scale options now then ever before. Remember the old war movies where the unit had a hand cranked radio? Not a lot of juice but now we have more efficient devices. Years ago my daughter gave me a hand cranked am/fm transistor radio in case of a hurricane power outage. Even had a built in flashlight. We have a variety of low am draw devices that would work: cell phones, LED lights, etc. And if your in good shape you could use a stationary bike w/generator for more power.

Off the grid and a well exercised...win/win. LOL.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 19:00:37

I actually bought a couple of Chineese military surplus units, came with a canvas bag and a frame you sat on, but still spun by hand. Some weird voltage for a field radio. Gave them away. I'm too old to be in that good a shape. LOL
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 11:41:02

A somewhat ironic twist:

Wind Powered Oil Recovery Project Completes First Phase

A wind powered oil recovery project, led by DNV GL, has completed its first phase and is currently moving into its second phase, which includes refining and testing electrical systems, and investigating possibilities for broader applications.

The first phase of the The WIN WIN (WINd powered Water INjection) project determined the concept is technically feasible, capable of meeting performance targets, and cost-competitive with conventional water injection solutions, according to DNV GL. The second phase will focus on extensive physical lab testing of the electrical systems at the DNV GL power laboratories in Arnhem, the Netherlands.

The WIN WIN concept includes a floating wind turbine, which supplies power to a typical water injection process that includes pumping and basic water treatment. “The second phase of WIN WIN is expected to run over the course of one to two years and will result in an application guideline document for the industry. If all tests are successful, a realistic timeline for a first full scale prototype could be around 2020,” he added.

The project’s partners comprise DNV GL, ExxonMobil and ENI Norge – all part of the first phase – and the Norwegian Research Council – a new participant for the second phase.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 13:29:06

No irony. Isn't it proof that EROEI counts, even to bean counters and their precious bottom line?
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 14:12:13

"Isn't it proof that EROEI counts, even to bean counters and their precious bottom line?" Actually, no. I've never met an oil patch bean counter who knew what that acronym stood for. But they do understand $'s.

And just MHO since they don't give any cost numbers but I suspect this is more publicity driven the profit driven. I know what such ops cost and they aren't that big even offshore. Offshore when a wind turbine installation is so much more expensive then onshore.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 14:18:21

But the bean counters do understand the underlying concept, that it is a waste burning precious petroleum to produce precious petroleum. That it loses money. Without all the fancy theory and such, they get it. So do you RM, in spite of your theoretical horseheadness
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Squilliam » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 19:28:11

ROCKMAN wrote:A somewhat ironic twist:

Wind Powered Oil Recovery Project Completes First Phase

A wind powered oil recovery project, led by DNV GL, has completed its first phase and is currently moving into its second phase, which includes refining and testing electrical systems, and investigating possibilities for broader applications.



I was wondering if/when that was going to happen. It never made sense to me to power oil equipment on expensive fuels when they could use renewables to pump the stuff out. Do you use anything like that?
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 21:23:01

Squilliam wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:A somewhat ironic twist:

Wind Powered Oil Recovery Project Completes First Phase

A wind powered oil recovery project, led by DNV GL, has completed its first phase and is currently moving into its second phase, which includes refining and testing electrical systems, and investigating possibilities for broader applications.



I was wondering if/when that was going to happen. It never made sense to me to power oil equipment on expensive fuels when they could use renewables to pump the stuff out. Do you use anything like that?

We would have heard about it by now. Very loud and clear, and I dare say . . . wordy lol So . . . no
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 22:45:30

S - "It never made sense to me to power oil equipment on expensive fuels when they could use renewables to pump the stuff out. Do you use anything like that?"

If an operator is lucky there's enough NG to power the facility. Especially if it's not enough to pipe out and would flare it anyway. Diesel is expensive especially when you include the cost of boating it out.

But typically the biggest problem is space. The cost per sq ft on a production platform is high so space is allocated judiciously. And then the same problem: intermittency. For production equipment that has to run 24/7 they would need either space for expensive batteries or diesel redundancy.

The projected noted might have one big advantage: they'll use the alt power for water injection. I'll assume it's being done for pressure maintenance/EOR. In that case going offline for a day or 5 wouldn't be that critical. OTOH if producing wells making 100,000 bopd had to be shut in for a few days management would be very upset.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 23:18:34

pstarr - "...the bean counters do understand the underlying concept...". Actually the oil patch bean counters watching over the production side not only don't understand the concept they don't even know it exists. Furthermore they have no idea of how much energy is used to drill/complete a well. In fact they don't even know the $ cost. Likewise the payable side of accounting (the folks that write the checks for my fuel purchases) never seess the data from the production side...volume or revenue.

But there is a group that sees all the accounting from the monies and bbls spent and the revenue and bbls produced: the management. And you're welcome to maintain your horseheadness but it won't change the FACT: in 41 years I've not seen or heard one geologist, engineer, accountant or manager use the acronym " EROEI". The first time the Rockman heard of the concept was some years ago on The Oil Drum. Which again is simply because in reviewing economic analysis of probably 1,000+ drilling proposals over the last 4 decades the Rockman has not ever seen the concept applied in the decision making process. Not once.

Remember what the Rockman has said and, more important, what he hasn't said: he's never said that the EROEI concept was valid. Just that it never has and never will be used to make oil/NG development decisions. That's not being stubborn...just being factual.

Just the same as the FACT that the big decrease in oil prices has resulted in HIGHER EROEI's of wells being drilled today the when oil was $90+/bbl. Which completely invalidate the assertion of many that EROEI inevitably DECREASES over time. The math is very simple: even though costs have declined they haven't fallen as much as oil prices. So to reach the same acceptable ROR to justify drilling the same well drilled now has to produce more oil then an identical one when oil prices were high.

And that FACT is showing up in the latest stats: while not as many rigs are running now as a few years the initial production rates of new wells in most trends are higher. They have to be to develop acceptably profit levels with the lower oil prices we have today.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 26 Apr 2017, 03:59:13

ROCKMAN wrote:
Just the same as the FACT that the big decrease in oil prices has resulted in HIGHER EROEI's of wells being drilled today the when oil was $90+/bbl. Which completely invalidate the assertion of many that EROEI inevitably DECREASES over time. The math is very simple: even though costs have declined they haven't fallen as much as oil prices. So to reach the same acceptable ROR to justify drilling the same well drilled now has to produce more oil then an identical one when oil prices were high.

And that FACT is showing up in the latest stats: while not as many rigs are running now as a few years the initial production rates of new wells in most trends are higher. They have to be to develop acceptably profit levels with the lower oil prices we have today.

Not to intrude on your dressing down of pstarr ( well done I must say) but the increasing ERoEI of wells drilled after the price dropped is due to the remaining operators only drilling in likely sweet spots, which is quite understandable, but what happens after they have drilled all the sweet spots out?
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