Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Moderator: Pops

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby rangerone314 » Fri 18 Sep 2009, 21:34:30

Novus wrote:
Maddog78 wrote:
JoeW wrote:The dimwit companies specializing in IT are just glorified pimps, interested only in selling my skills to the highest bidder and seeing how much they can smack me around before I quit.


That makes me sad to read that.
I wish you good luck in the future.


Is what is really sad is JoeW's story is the norm not the exception.

It is a sign of the times the rich have declared war on the workers and it looks like they are winning. In the good old days there would be strikes and riots over such treatment.


Ah, the wonders of having a nice stable government that efficiently enforces the status quo of gradually choking the middle & working classes. A time was once this kind of abuse would have meant rich people being guillotined or burned down in the palaces.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4065
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby AgentR » Fri 18 Sep 2009, 22:08:28

rangerone314 wrote:Ah, the wonders of having a nice stable government that efficiently enforces the status quo of gradually choking the middle & working classes. A time was once this kind of abuse would have meant rich people being guillotined or burned down in the palaces.


Well, if half the working class wasn't vehemently seeking to obliterate the culture and lifestyles of the other half, maybe the rich wouldn't be so overly in control of the government.

But hey, stomping on gun nuts and lunatic evangelists is more important, no?
Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
User avatar
AgentR
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1946
Joined: Fri 06 Oct 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby VZR1800 » Fri 18 Sep 2009, 22:53:44

VMarcHart wrote:
vision-master wrote:
VMarcHart wrote:
vision-master wrote:...the yougner sheeple ppl have bought into the idea that unions are obsolete. Unions are for lazy non-skilled ppl. Well, keep the lone ranger attitude, while you get grinded into poverty, lose all yer benefits and get fired 'at will'. :)
Not that I think getting fire at will is cool, but unions mostly care for their members only, with blunt disregard to customer satisfaction. So much for keeping jobs, when nobody wants to buy the products. I.e, GM, school districts, etc.

As things evolve in life, no different than healthcare insurance companies becoming obsolete and costly, there's bound to be something better than unions, something that carries the good and ditches the bad.


:) See what I mean.
Yeah, but I'm not young, and hardly a sheeple, but that's just my opinion.


I'm with you, I am 48 and despise unions.
May they all go the way of the Dodo!

My dad is 67 and feels the same way. 8)
User avatar
VZR1800
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon 29 Jun 2009, 19:15:06
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 19 Sep 2009, 08:08:57

Management always despises Unions. :lol:
vision-master
 

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby VZR1800 » Sat 19 Sep 2009, 11:23:01

Neither my dad or I were ever management. 8)
User avatar
VZR1800
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon 29 Jun 2009, 19:15:06
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby turner » Sat 19 Sep 2009, 12:14:57

Starvid wrote:Guys, comparative advantage doesn't make sense in a world of free capital flows. Sorry about that.

Let me give you a classic example. Imagine you can only produce two goods, wine and cloth, and there are only two countries in the world, Portugal and England. Portugal is better at producing both wine and cloth than England is, ie., they can produce both cheaper. But they can produce wine comparatively cheaper than they can produce cloth. In such a world, English capitalists will produce cloth and Portugese capitalists will produce wine, and then they will trade their products for mutual enrichment, according to the David Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage. So far so good.

But in a world with free capital flows, like our world, something very different will happen: all capitalists, English as well as Portugese, will hunt the highest risk-adjusted return in the entire world, which means all capital will flow to Portugal because that's where production of both cloth and wine is most efficient. England will be starved off capital. English workers will get cheaper cloth and cheaper wine, but that won't help because they will all be unemployed. The only solution is creating not only free movement of capital but also free movement of workers, so English workers can emigrate to Portugal where the jobs are, until equibrium is reached.

Now, what does this tell us? It tells us that what matters in the current world is not comparative advantage, but absolute advantage. This is not very alien when you get used to it. For example, corporations don't get orders because they have a comparative advantage but because they have the absolute advantage - they deliver the best product at the best price.


Yes you are right I should have said absolute advantage not comparative.
User avatar
turner
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue 10 Jun 2008, 02:00:00

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby VMarcHart » Sat 19 Sep 2009, 18:43:05

VZR1800 wrote:I'm with you, I am 48 and despise unions. May they all go the way of the Dodo! My dad is 67 and feels the same way. 8)
I don't automatically despise unions, but neither do they walk on water in my book.

Unions are great to protect against massive layoffs, or ensure management is passing some of the profits down the line, but they suck at keeping the company at the cutting edge. Again, see the automakers and the school districts.
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
User avatar
VMarcHart
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1644
Joined: Mon 26 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Now overpopulating California

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby rangerone314 » Sat 19 Sep 2009, 22:32:22

VZR1800 wrote:I'm with you, I am 48 and despise unions.
May they all go the way of the Dodo!

My dad is 67 and feels the same way. 8)

I used to not like unions, but consider how easy it is for companies to act in concert against the best interests of workers and consumers. Read up on ADM if you need a lesson in corporate price fixing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland#Price_fixing
In 1993, ADM was the subject of a lysine price fixing investigation by the U.S. Justice Department. Senior ADM executives were indicted on criminal charges for engaging in price-fixing within the international lysine market. Three of ADM's top officials, including vice chairman Michael Andreas were eventually sentenced to federal prison in 1999. Moreover, in 1997, the company was fined $100 million, the largest antitrust fine in U.S. history at the time.[3] Mark Whitacre, FBI informant and whistleblower of the lysine price fixing conspiracy would also find himself in legal trouble for embezzling money from ADM during his time as an informant for the FBI.[4] In addition, according to ADM's 2005 annual report a settlement was reached under which ADM paid $400 million in 2005 to settle a class action antitrust suit.[5]

Using the investigation as an example, Ronald W. Cotterill of the Food Marketing Policy Center at the University of Connecticut shows that 100 percent or more of overcharges resulting from price fixing are passed through to consumers.[6]

The Informant is a nonfiction thriller book written by journalist Kurt Eichenwald and published in 2000 by Random House[7] that documents the mid-1990s lysine price-fixing conspiracy case and the involvement of Archer Daniels Midland executive Mark Whitacre. There is also a movie adaption of the book set for a September 18, 2009 release date.


Companies DO NOT function according to capitalistic theory. Anyone here think government regulations and unions are NOT needed to rein in bad behavior like ADM? One might note it was by sheer luck that ADM got caught; it is almost a certainty that a lot of corporations get away with a lot more that we don't know about because the don't get caught.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4065
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby jdmartin » Mon 21 Sep 2009, 09:22:24

VZR1800 wrote:I'm with you, I am 48 and despise unions.
May they all go the way of the Dodo!

My dad is 67 and feels the same way. 8)


Why? I'm interested to read why someone who is/has never been part of management despises unions.
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
User avatar
jdmartin
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1272
Joined: Thu 19 May 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Merry Ol' USA

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 21 Sep 2009, 09:25:08

jdmartin wrote:
VZR1800 wrote:I'm with you, I am 48 and despise unions.
May they all go the way of the Dodo!

My dad is 67 and feels the same way. 8)


Why? I'm interested to read why someone who is/has never been part of management despises unions.


Management wanabees?

Fell on head at birth? :lol:
vision-master
 

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby jdmartin » Mon 21 Sep 2009, 12:26:04

VMarcHart wrote:
VZR1800 wrote:I'm with you, I am 48 and despise unions. May they all go the way of the Dodo! My dad is 67 and feels the same way. 8)
I don't automatically despise unions, but neither do they walk on water in my book.

Unions are great to protect against massive layoffs, or ensure management is passing some of the profits down the line, but they suck at keeping the company at the cutting edge. Again, see the automakers and the school districts.


A does not equal B in your equation. A corporation does not *have* to be an evil, bloodsucking leach, nor does a union have to be a hindrance on quality & development. The troubles of GM and Chrysler are just as easily traceable to shoddy engineering and corner-cutting by management as they are to union demands. Example: mid-90's GM 3.8 engines used, like lots of cars, plastic upper intakes. The design routed hot exhaust through the intake, which made the intake brittle, causing it to fail and draw coolant into the engine, damaging &/or destroying the engine. Whose fault is that - the guy who put it on the car, the guy who engineered it, or the management team that approved the design?
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
User avatar
jdmartin
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1272
Joined: Thu 19 May 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Merry Ol' USA

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 21 Sep 2009, 16:05:20

The Biggest Lie perpetrated on the American people is that this is a classless society. GW is the poster boy for Class (or lack of it?) Imperative. People don't see Class because Class doesn't dress up in the US in monocles, ermines, etc.
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 25026
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby AgentR » Mon 21 Sep 2009, 17:24:03

If you acknowledge GW is poster boy... you need to acknowledge BO as Mr. Slick of Class Inc.
Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
User avatar
AgentR
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1946
Joined: Fri 06 Oct 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 18 Apr 2017, 18:22:54

Something I have noticed, people are much more optimistic about work and their futures for the first time in years.

A survey by Bankrate has found that more Americans are becoming more optimistic about their retirement savings, according to this article on MarketWatch. This is the first time after six years of conducting the annual survey that more people voiced confidence about their retirement prospects. “The stock market has been on quite a tear,” which would explain the rising optimism among retirement savers, says a financial analyst with Bankrate. “That account balance looks a lot better, and that could be contributing to that comfort people have with what they’ve accumulated.”


https://www.benefitnews.com/news/worker ... in-6-years
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 06:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Tue 18 Apr 2017, 18:47:55

VMarcHart wrote:Unions are great to protect against massive layoffs, or ensure management is passing some of the profits down the line, but they suck at keeping the company at the cutting edge. Again, see the automakers and the school districts.

Unions are not designed to keep the company at the cutting edge. That is an engineering job.
Unions are designed to prevent the company from abusing the workers.
If you learn about the early history of unions, you will know why they exist. They worked fine until they got too powerful, and had too much money involved.
Kind of like cops - they were ok until they were given total power over the average person. When the gov gutted the Bill of rights, we lost everything. Now they feel the need to use that power, and have been given permission to do so.
I checked out and commissioned many industrial installations, and have always found the union worker installations were much better quality than non-union.
Its hard to beat a true 4 year apprenticeship with six months or a year of trade school.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
John Prine
Hawkcreek
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Washington State

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 22 Apr 2017, 17:49:38

Hawkcreek wrote:
VMarcHart wrote:I checked out and commissioned many industrial installations, and have always found the union worker installations were much better quality than non-union.
Its hard to beat a true 4 year apprenticeship with six months or a year of trade school.

So clearly there is the need for balance.

The issue I have with unions is they make it nearly impossible to fire people in some cases, which leads to abuse of the company by the workers.

The A&P unionized grocery store went under at some point. Given my friends who worked there and were unhappy with the people who slept on the job, but could not be fired is an example. Another friend working on the unionized railroad got so sick of that he started knocking down doors to get to the sleepers and threaten them with physical destruction. (Not hard to guess who got disciplined. He decided to retire soon after that). And the financial position of the US railroads overall isn't exactly stellar.

So surely there's a way to have unions protect workers from being "abused" without making it where union work overall is so expensive that it drives many unionized companies right out of business, due partially to such abuses being too widespread.
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 3316
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: US wage earners make less now than 10 years ago

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Sun 23 Apr 2017, 00:30:33

If you look at places where unions have not been demonized by the media for 50 years, it seems they still work pretty well.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/#67eeb9406b78
German car makers produce what the whole world agrees are quality automobiles (Mercedes, BMW, VW, etc), and still pays its workers more than double what American auto workers earn.
The quality comes from union training, the good pay comes from union bargaining.
The manufacturer still makes a good profit.
In the USA, the elite have worked very hard to kill unions, and have almost succeeded. Now most Americans are convinced that unions are the reason that we are not very competitive in the world market. Victims of an excellent propaganda machine. But how many times has that machine every told of anything positive about unions?
Day after day, you only hear of how hard it is to fire poor workers. The real problems with American industry comes primarily from poor decisions by management. Did the workers really decide to introduce a car like the Vega?
Unions still screw up and sometimes condone featherbedding and lazy workers, but when they have been defeated in every way for the last 3 or 4 decades, I can understand a bit of petulance.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
John Prine
Hawkcreek
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Washington State

Previous

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests