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THE Global Population Thread Pt. 3

Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 09:03:28

ralfy wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Read about it here Ralphy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary ... acteristic

They are believed to be the product of sexual selection for traits which display fitness, giving an individual an advantage over its rivals in courtship and aggressive interactions. They are distinguished from the primary sex characteristics, the sex organs, which are directly necessary for sexual reproduction to occur.
Secondary sex characteristics include manes of male lions and long feathers of male peacock, the tusks of male narwhals, enlarged proboscises in male elephant seals and proboscis monkeys, the bright facial and rump coloration of male mandrills, and horns in many goats and antelopes, and these are believed to be produced by a positive feedback loop known as the Fisherian runaway produced by the secondary characteristic in one sex and the desire for that characteristic in the other sex. Male birds and fish of many species have brighter coloration or other external ornaments. Differences in size between sexes are also considered secondary sexual characteristics.


I don't think males from these species buy or put on feathers, tusks, etc., in a way that male humans would wear expensive sunglasses. I'm not even sure how phenotypes can now be equated with virtual value of marketed products.


Ralphy,
Try reading up on Bower Birds (I think that's right.). There is a wonderful description of them and how their behavior directly answers your question in "That Thing with Feathers."

But also that book I can't recall that goes into the way conspicious consumption displays work in humans.

My internet is extremely poor so I can't find and post links.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 09:09:53

Squilliam,

Yes exactly. And I think we are seeing the emergence of these behaviors in the growing nationalist movements. I expect to see this then only get stronger.

I further think it reflects back to our recent election of Trump. He feeds into those emotions and gives them some legitimacy.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 13:16:36

Newfie wrote:
Ralphy,
Try reading up on Bower Birds (I think that's right.). There is a wonderful description of them and how their behavior directly answers your question in "That Thing with Feathers."

But also that book I can't recall that goes into the way conspicious consumption displays work in humans.

My internet is extremely poor so I can't find and post links.


Do bowerbirds buy overpriced materials to make structures in the same way that human beings buy overpriced sunglasses? And since the latter are priced highly because they are endorsed by celebrities who appear in fancy ads, do we assume that these birds also have similar? That is, consumer markets for materials and bird celebrities to endorse them?

For the point about conspicuous consumption, I mentioned the author's last name in a previous post.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 16:09:36

Price paid by other animals is calories. Bower birds pay a heavy price in creating massive "huts" to woo their mates. The huts are built on areas that they have cleared of all vegetation, not easy. Then they go out and find special objects, say things that are blue, blue berries, blue string, blue bottle caps, blue glass. They arrange them systematically so as to present a very special image, one that incorporates some special optical effects, to the lady bird.

So yes, they do all the things you speak of.

But why are we discussing this point? How did we get here?

I feel that this is a non disagreement, a tangent from the main topic.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 19:41:14

Well to be blunt, liquor drops drawers just as fast as shiny beads in my experience.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 19:57:33

Kisses are sweeter but liqueur is quicker. Or is it lick her is quicker? Does it matter? :-D
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 18 Mar 2017, 21:15:07

Newfie wrote:Price paid by other animals is calories. Bower birds pay a heavy price in creating massive "huts" to woo their mates. The huts are built on areas that they have cleared of all vegetation, not easy. Then they go out and find special objects, say things that are blue, blue berries, blue string, blue bottle caps, blue glass. They arrange them systematically so as to present a very special image, one that incorporates some special optical effects, to the lady bird.

So yes, they do all the things you speak of.

But why are we discussing this point? How did we get here?

I feel that this is a non disagreement, a tangent from the main topic.


If it's "paid," then who's the receiver? Are the calories deposited in a bank, lent out at interest, and increased through a multiplier?

Do they also make more huts than what are needed, let bower bird celebrities endorse them, have them manufactured in bower bird developing economies, and then sold at a discount during particular times of the year? Perhaps there are also counterfeits made in some parts of their global economy?

I'm asking these questions because that's how it works with designer sunglasses.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 11:07:26

Ralph somehow you've lost the whole point.

Ibon and I are talking about Darwinian evilution and how it's forces drive us.

We are taking about the underlying foxes at work in our bodies which we can not control.

You are stuck looking at the symptoms of the root cause.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 11:21:39

Newfie wrote:Ralph somehow you've lost the whole point.

Ibon and I are talking about Darwinian evilution and how it's forces drive us.

We are taking about the underlying foxes at work in our bodies which we can not control.

You are stuck looking at the symptoms of the root cause.

Foxes?? :)
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 11:52:37

I blame the darn iPhone auto replace feature! :oops:

FIXES not foxes. (And evolution not evilution - which it does think is a word?)

Sometimes I think I just exist for the merriment of others. :-D
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 20:00:09

For a while, since reading "Taste of War", I've had the idea that the firt phase of our population collapse would come about because of a go along financial collapse, itself brought about because the "players" at heart all distrust one another and at one point will create a "bank run" when they all try to bail from the game at once.

Then I read this. Ugo Bardi seems to have a similar gut feeling. Not good.

http://peakoil.com/generalideas/zombie- ... our-future
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby sparky » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 20:10:06

.
On birds and feathers , generally speaking , it's the female which choose who she will be mating with
there are exceptions , Ducks are on record as rapists ,

the usual test for the female is how strong and healthy the prospective mate is
she goes for the efficient and discrete camouflage suit
the gorgeous feather of the peacock , pheasant and others is a handicap , a dazzling display of extravagant spending of resources for no useful everyday purpose ,
in fact they are a very severe handicap to not being noticed ,preyed upon or flying away
the whole point is a swagger , look how good I am , I can waste so much because I'm so good
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 20:14:36

Yup, you got the concept. Same with some dick driving a fancy sport car and blowing come. Look how I swagger! Look how I can afford to waste!
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 23:14:03

Newfie wrote:Ralph somehow you've lost the whole point.

Ibon and I are talking about Darwinian evilution and how it's forces drive us.

We are taking about the underlying foxes at work in our bodies which we can not control.

You are stuck looking at the symptoms of the root cause.


From what I remember, you were comparing overpriced sunglasses with tail feathers:

the-global-population-thread-pt-2-t73148-380.html#p1352290

and with that seeing conspicuous consumption in light of natural selection. But as I explained earlier, the two are not the same. That's why the example had to be changed to bowerbirds building structures, but that's still not the same as buying overpriced sunglasses for reasons also explained earlier.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Mar 2017, 04:36:52

It seems I have explained poorly. Why not go back and read Ibon and Sparky posts. They seem to have the same drift. Maybe their explanations can help. Sorry.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 21 Mar 2017, 22:39:59

Newfie wrote:It seems I have explained poorly. Why not go back and read Ibon and Sparky posts. They seem to have the same drift. Maybe their explanations can help. Sorry.


I think there are two points: men buying overpriced sunglasses to attract women is the same as male bowerbirds constructing structures to attract females, and both are supposed to be examples of natural selection.

From what I know, natural selection refers to changes in the environment causing organisms with beneficial mutations to survive. Given that, I don't think both examples refer to natural selection.

Also, I don't think the comparison between overpriced sunglasses and bowerbird structures is also logical. The first refers to cheap pieces of plastic manufactured and shipped through extensive supply chains and made valuable through endorsement from celebrities and brand marketing. Given that, I think it's obvious that the two are not the same.

In any event, please let me know what I missed or what you feel you did not explain properly.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 22 Mar 2017, 08:51:26

We will have to pick this up later. The internet here is just getting worse and worse. I'll try to remember to come back to this.

Thanks for patience.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Squilliam » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 05:55:25

Newfie wrote:Squilliam,

Yes exactly. And I think we are seeing the emergence of these behaviors in the growing nationalist movements. I expect to see this then only get stronger.

I further think it reflects back to our recent election of Trump. He feeds into those emotions and gives them some legitimacy.


In times of crisis there are a whole range of forces that get set into motion. People look towards religion/ideology and they cling to it more tightly. Extremists, not just the right wing type, come out of the woodwork. I don't think it's a coincidence that many places in the Middle East are coming under the sway of extreme religious ideology because in a secular sense many of the same forces are coming out in the West. I'm also seeing things like 'toxic masculinity, rape culture, patriarchy etc' bursting out of the radfem textbooks into newspaper articles from papers in New Zealand. There is also the growing 'alt-right' and counter-culture attacks on what is now 'the left wing establishment elite'. Many of the old orders are crumbling, and it really becomes difficult to see what to make of what is to come.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 08:16:50

I don't know as just a pair of overpriced sunglasses or a Rolex watch will attract a human female but having your company startup go public making you a billionaire sure does the trick. :) Unfortunately back in 1968 I missed that memo. :(
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 08:36:10

"Many of the old orders are crumbling, and it really becomes difficult to see what to make of what is to come."

Or...

"Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity..."

Note that this was written by Yeats nearly 100 years ago, but seems ever more relevant today. People have had the feeling of the that 'mere anarchy is loosed upon the world' and that 'the centre cannot hold' for quite some time now!
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