Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 3, 21st century perspecti

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 12:02:53

Your free to continue with Fox News or whatever other fake news you follow. Maybe something like this and I quote this absurd statement: That is, infinite economic growth is possible, as long as:
i) the amount of raw materials extracted and energy produced is at or below some base sustainable level;
ii) any additional negative externalities (ie. pollution) are kept below the “sink” capacity of nature; and
iii) we have a fiat money system."
So, how are you going to do that with rabbits out of a hat. Or else the author does not really mean economic growth but an optimization of our current system
http://www.progressive-economics.ca/200 ... -possible/
“the Hell is what we will leave behind" Ibon
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6622
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 12:07:20

So onlooker, I read them. One thing sticks out: US agriculture exports have declined to the lowest level since 2007, at the onset of the Greatest Recession.
Image
Not because substitution (I don't see other countries filling in, check out Brazil food exports) but because of demand is drying up. Folks are eating fewer 'Healthy Choice' entrees, more goat meat. More grubs for dinner.

And when the globalist mission blows up again, the talking heads will find another excuse other than demand collapse. They'll blame it on Trump's Trade War. They blamed the 1929 stock market collapse and Great Depression on trade wars, protectionism. Got that one wrong also. It was industrialization and automation, especially at the agriculture level. The trade war was a consequence, not cause.

That's because tt the turn of the century almost 50% of the United States workforce was directly employed in agriculture. Directly. Who knows how many more were employed manufacturing inputs and tools? But after World War I, tanks were re-purposed as heavy-duty treaded caterpillar tractors. Ripping the plains better than any steam tractor. By the crash the small farms were dying.

It'll be a rinse-and-respeat. No one wants to admit that labor, trade and demand is collapsing all by itself, everywhere around the world. QE(n) withstanding. Guess why? It ain't Korean assembly lines this time :?

asg, how would you relabel a reverse appeal to authority?
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 24713
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 12:17:52

Oh and economic growth would oversee some more inflating of the population. Careful what you wish for
“the Hell is what we will leave behind" Ibon
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6622
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 12:30:35

onlooker wrote:Your free to continue with Fox News or whatever other fake news you follow. Maybe something like this and I quote this absurd statement: That is, infinite economic growth is possible, as long as:
i) the amount of raw materials extracted and energy produced is at or below some base sustainable level;
ii) any additional negative externalities (ie. pollution) are kept below the “sink” capacity of nature; and
iii) we have a fiat money system."
So, how are you going to do that with rabbits out of a hat. Or else the author does not really mean economic growth but an optimization of our current system
http://www.progressive-economics.ca/200 ... -possible/


onlooker, you don't have a clue. Fox News does not do a lot on the economy and what they do is regular reports sourced from government and private sources on Fox Business, a separate channel. Fox News is politics and political commentary. Neither is associated with a lefty "Progressive Economics Forum" in Alberta, Canada.

So you imagined what your idea of their position would be and then you heaped scorn on it. I find such to be typical of you and many other PO.com members, who cannot even be bothered to understand the position of your political opponents.

Not to mention your second comment above. The facts being that both the US and Canada would have declining populations if it were not for immigration into those countries.

Reality always spoils a good lefty tirade. Which is why you and your lefty ilk are regularly trounced in debate here. If you did not so carefully exclude actual knowledge of your opponent's political position, not to mention the facts themselves, we could have a substantive dialogue.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 12:38:51

Get real KJ. Onlooker used the FOX word just once. He was responding to the idiot's contention that 'infinite economic growth is possible' This has nothing to do with American partisan distractions.

Instead let's talk about industrial and ecological collapse? And why automation/efficieny (your favorites . . . Siri, Space travel and the Singularity. SSS. Triple Threat lol) will not save our sorry asses from the limits of a over-populated and under-resourced planet.
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 24713
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 12:54:21

I never said that space travel WOULD save us, only that it COULD save the human race. Those few humans that enter space will have a difficult struggle, but everybody left on Earth has an even greater struggle as they compete for dwindling resources on a planet that already has 700% of the sustainable population level.

I took the time to explain this for the umpteenth time, and I know you still prefer your version of what I believe to mine. Which means that YOU are as clueless as onlooker, as you are making the same mistakes.

I think most people here at PO.com understand that NOTHING WHATSOEVER will save a planet where humans reproduce without any limits. The first culling is coming when oil gets too expensive to use for growing food, and the Third World starves, along with half of the Second World countries. The First World countries can survive as long as we close our borders to refugees and allow Mother Nature to cull the human herd.

But don't hold your breath, the human herd is riddled with stupid lefties who want to stampede over the cliff of open borders.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 13:06:05

KaiserJeep wrote:Those few humans that enter space will have a difficult struggle, but everybody left on Earth has an even greater struggle as they compete for dwindling resources . . .

My future in this beautiful, wet, lush, rich Pacific Northwest will be hell? Compared to Matt Damon's pitiful time on Mars?

KJ you don't subscribe to catastrophic global warming nor nuclear annihilation and winter. So where do you come up with total planetary doom. Impossible

KaiserJeep wrote: took the time to explain this for the umpteenth time, and I know you still prefer your version of what I believe to mine. Which means that YOU are as clueless as onlooker, as you are making the same mistakes.
what mistakes?

KaiserJeep wrote:I think most people here at PO.com understand that NOTHING WHATSOEVER will save a planet where humans reproduce without any limits. The first culling is coming when oil gets too expensive to use for growing food, and the Third World starves, along with half of the Second World countries. The First World countries can survive as long as we close our borders to refugees and allow Mother Nature to cull the human herd.
we agree here

KaiserJeep wrote:But don't hold your breath, the human herd is riddled with stupid lefties who want to stampede over the cliff of open borders.

Jesus fecking christo. How can you turn this into a partisan BS is beyond me.
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 24713
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 13:50:19

Pete, it's not partisan, it's practical. When the borders are closed, the USA will gradually decline to a sustainable population. With open borders, we too will die. I don't actually think we will close our national borders anytime soon enough to matter, which means we in the USA will die. The only survivors will be those off-planet.

I understand that a total lack of critical thinking, plus an unshaken faith that beliefs trump reality every single time, is a requirement to be a lefty. Well, you might consider letting the real world between your ears on occasion.

I don't actually believe that you will be enjoying life in the Pacific NorthWest in 50 years when we run out of oil. Do you expect it?

Reality, what a concept!
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:05:22

I am not sure where your partisan tirade came from Kaiser. I guess from my mention of Fox news. I simply was alluding to an example of mainstream news. I could just as easily have said CNN or MSNBC. I think it is telling how you immediately interpret it as some partisan biased comments. As for your analysis that economic growth is associated with population reduction that is a complex issue. You cannot say that people who are at the edge of survival are automatically going to overpopulate given that any further scarcity can send that population into precipitous decline. Which is what my statement tried to convey, that sufficient food, medicine, transportation, good sanitation etc. all product of a sufficiently robust economic system would enable populations to survive and thus grow.
All my line of thought precipitated by Asg, attacking the credibility of the site Zerohedge, because apparently it is a little to blunt and stark for his liking. Well, mainstream news of which Fox is part of make commentaries and editorials that rather shy away from bluntness in favor of unrealistic and downright false notions. We can argue this last point endlessly. I simply do not trust mainstream news and the Establishment as they have been consistently transmitting false information on the airwaves and mediums of communication. For example Exxon, on climate change, Cigarette companies on tobacco, Govt. reports about the Economy, about true international motivations and maneuvers, about spying on the public at large, about domestic policies that have are portrayed as beneficial but are not, such as the War on Drugs, Immigration policy etc. About economic policies whose true motivations are to further the aims of Corporations and the well heeled rather than the average citizen. And so on.
I am seriously tired of hearing over and over again from some on this site this naive and old/tired version of a reality which simply does not exist. The reason I stay is because at least all of you here understand the fact that ALL this is very unsustainable. The sheeple at large in the world do not even see that. They are no better than zombies unable to understand anything beyond their immediate survival.
Last edited by onlooker on Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:13:59, edited 1 time in total.
“the Hell is what we will leave behind" Ibon
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6622
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby Cog » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:11:07

^^^^^^^^^

One thing that separates us from the beasts of the field is the proper use of paragraphs.
User avatar
Cog
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8028
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:15:42

KaiserJeep wrote:Pete, it's not partisan, it's practical. When the borders are closed, the USA will gradually decline to a sustainable population. With open borders, we too will die. I don't actually think we will close our national borders anytime soon enough to matter, which means we in the USA will die. The only survivors will be those off-planet.

So you seriously believe that a Mexican/US border will somehow prevent your annihilation from global industrial collapse?

The border is a joke, desert for hundreds of miles on either side. It's not those maniacal latino drug dealers you need to worry about. Without gasoline they will be stuck 1,000 south in Mexico and Central America. It's the Los Angelenos on our side of the border. Take away their sushi and water and they will migrate. All the way to your groovy SF pied-à-terre.

KaiserJeep wrote:I understand that a total lack of critical thinking, plus an unshaken faith that beliefs trump reality every single time, is a requirement to be a lefty. Well, you might consider letting the real world between your ears on occasion.

Well, let's just write the whole damn thing off as Obama's fault then. No use getting yer panties all bunched up again lol
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 24713
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:25:44

onlooker wrote:I am not sure where your partisan tirade came from Kaiser. I guess from my mention of Fox news. I simply was alluding to an example of mainstream news. I could just as easily have said CNN or MSNBC. I think it is telling how you immediately interpret it as some partisan biased comments. As for your analysis that economic growth is associated with population reduction that is a complex issue. You cannot say that people who are at the edge of survival are automatically going to overpopulate given that any further scarcity can send that population into precipitous decline. Which is what my statement tried to convey, that sufficient food, medicine, transportation, good sanitation etc. all product of a sufficiently robust economic system would enable populations to survive and thus grow.
All my line of thought precipitated by Asg, attacking the credibility of the site Zerohedge, because apparently it is a little to blunt and stark for his liking. Well, mainstream news of which Fox is part of make commentaries and editorials that rather shy away from bluntness in favor of unrealistic and downright false notions. We can argue this last point endlessly. I simply do not trust mainstream news and the Establishment as they have been consistently transmitting false information on the airwaves and mediums of communication. For example Exxon, on climate change, Cigarette companies on tobacco, Govt. reports about the Economy, about true international motivations and maneuvers, about spying on the public at large, about domestic policies that have are portrayed as beneficial but are not, such as the War on Drugs, Immigration policy etc. About economic policies whose true motivations are to further the aims of Corporations and the well heeled rather than the average citizen. And so on.
I am seriously tired of hearing over and over again from some on this site this naive and old/tired version of a reality which simply does not exist. The reason I stay is because at least all of you here understand the fact that ALL this is very unsustainable. The sheeple at large in the world do not even see that. They are no better than zombies unable to understand anything beyond their immediate survival.


YOU quoted a lefty web page in Alberta Canada and then attacked Fox News for statements that YOU had cut and pasted from that lefty web page. Then YOU displayed a staggering lack of familiarity with Fox News and Fox Business, two different cable channels in the Fox Entertainment group, which is a reliable indication that YOU YOURSELF exclude from your head all inputs that do not fit into your warped lefty view of the world. Then when I injected actual facts and noted that one could not even make a coherent argument unless you understand the position of your opponent in the debate.

Lastly, you posted the incoherent tirade above. I am making an assumption here, but you seem to be hot because somebody else has dared to question your cherished self-delusions. But free and open and respectful debate is what PO.com is all about.

RSVP. If you are currently under the influence of a mind-altering substance including alcohol, I think you should wait until tomorrow before replying. Just a suggestion.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:33:22

pstarr wrote:-snip-
So you seriously believe that a Mexican/US border will somehow prevent your annihilation from global industrial collapse?


No, I didn't say that. I think ALL of the border must be closed. That would include the Northern border if Canada is not of like mind about excluding refugees. The 9/11 terrorists entered through Canada, remember.

pstarr wrote:The border is a joke, desert for hundreds of miles on either side. It's not those maniacal latino drug dealers you need to worry about. Without gasoline they will be stuck 1,000 south in Mexico and Central America. It's the Los Angelenos on our side of the border. Take away their sushi and water and they will migrate. All the way to your groovy SF pied-à-terre.


The border would NOT be a joke if it were patrolled continuously by autonomous armed drones, which will rain Hellfire missiles down automatically on unidentified humans in the zone. You have to give them a reason to use the legal border crossings.

Half measures will not save us. We must be committed to closing the borders, or die.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:39:03

Peak oil industrial collapse replete with killer drones and autonomous hellfire missiles. Okay. That is what I call cognitive dissonance lol
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 24713
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:44:58

pstarr wrote:Peak oil industrial collapse replete with killer drones and autonomous hellfire missiles. Okay. That is what I call cognitive dissonance lol

:lol: :lol: :razz:
“the Hell is what we will leave behind" Ibon
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6622
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:46:54

I never have believed in the collapse scenario. For example recycling of materials has eliminated many mining operations and avoided much additional imported oil, here in the USA and elsewhere. Digital electronics is responsible for doing more with less resources than any part of the Industrial Revolution save the big #1 which is cheap energy from burning fossil fuels. As I have said many times, we will never lose our electronic tech, it is simply too valuable and saves so much. It also stores the sum total of human knowledge and makes such available on a worldwide network. If the world ends as many people think it might, the last two survivors will be connected via voice/text/video on their smartphones.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:51:13

KJ, did you just say AI? You don't seriously believe Siri will save us?
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 24713
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 14:55:59

the last two survivors will be connected via voice/text/video on their smartphones.
Tell me this is satire 8O
Maybe, psychic/telepathy communication 8O :-D
“the Hell is what we will leave behind" Ibon
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6622
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 15:01:45

pstarr wrote:KJ, did you just say AI? You don't seriously believe Siri will save us?


No.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Carrying Capacity/Human Overshoot; Pt. 2, 21st century p

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 15:03:51

onlooker wrote:
the last two survivors will be connected via voice/text/video on their smartphones.
Tell me this is satire 8O
Maybe, psychic/telepathy communication 8O :-D


No, wifi.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

PreviousNext

Return to Environment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Valdemar and 12 guests