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Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 11:38:04

I confess, my go to town pick-up is a 2 wheel drive Toyota Tacoma, just because it gets 25 MPG. My pick-up around the homestead is a 1990 4x4 F-150, which is needed to get up my mile long, goat path driveway in the winter. And my walkabout camping vehicle is a 1977 Chevy 1 ton van, which is leaving in about a week to look for scenic views for my Canon 5D to admire. I think I am going to skip the snow this year.
Except I may go skiing in Utah a couple of times.
Anyway, I like all types of vehicles, honest. Typical Murican semi-gearhead.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 13:17:53

Hawk - And I'll admit to my dose of pu envy. When buying my current handicap vehicle they had a 4x4 Chevy crewcab. Very cool: the entire driver's side (both doors) slid out on a beam with an elevator: back my wheelchair in and hit a botton: elevator goes up and the beam slides me in front of the steering wheel. And since I drive bad lease roads in the oil field the 4wd is easily justified...at times. But I usually rock the lease road and drill pad so don't need 4wd that often. When I do I just have a hand drive me in.

Just couldn't justify the exra $35k. Which is why instead of driving a very cool handicap pu I drive a f*cking handicap Toyota minivan. LOL.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 13:53:10

Rock,
Its only money, and life is short. Buy the fancy PU. As a former oil field hand, I don't regret a penny of the money I pissed away over the years. You can't take it with you, and the kids would probably just spend it on a hot rod Camaro for themselves.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 14:58:46

Hawk - "Its only money, and life is short." So true. OTOH I have a daughter planing to go to Texas A&M in a couple of years. And even with a 4.1 GPA it won't be free. Plus being 65 yo with MS I tend to focus on not pissing away her inheritance. And then there's that used Chevy crewcab I helped my country girl buy earlier in the summer when she turned 16.

Dads with daughters...we don't stand a f*cking chance. LOL. But I have thought about renting that 4x4 for week just to watch the shocked look on the faces when the entire side slides out and I roll out in my power chair. Just not sure they'll rent it.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby litesong » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 21:16:40

Hawkcreek wrote:Rock,
Its only money, and life is short. Buy the fancy PU.


We got two Elantras, one for under $13,000. Each has gotten 45mpg & 200,000 miles look like their travel distances.... but few trips to repair shops. I'll spend tens of thousands of dollars less than you, have more fun, & won't worry about philosophy or children to which you didn't teach the value of money.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 22:08:16

litesong wrote:
Hawkcreek wrote:Rock,
Its only money, and life is short. Buy the fancy PU.


We got two Elantras, one for under $13,000. Each has gotten 45mpg & 200,000 miles look like their travel distances.... but few trips to repair shops. I'll spend tens of thousands of dollars less than you, have more fun, & won't worry about philosophy or children to which you didn't teach the value of money.

Wrong again. No way you have ever learned how to have fun. I bet you have never even got arrested, after getting drunk and getting in a fight.
I bet you got a pretty mouth, though. :lol:
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 07 Nov 2016, 23:15:19

Damn Hawk, if you ain't oil field trash like the Rockman you do a first class imitation. LOL
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby litesong » Tue 08 Nov 2016, 12:47:09

Hawkcreek wrote:
litesong wrote:
Hawkcreek wrote:Rock,
Its only money, and life is short. Buy the fancy PU.


We got two Elantras, one for under $13,000. Each has gotten 45mpg & 200,000 miles look like their travel distances.... but few trips to repair shops. I'll spend tens of thousands of dollars less than you, have more fun, & won't worry about philosophy or children to which you didn't teach the value of money.


I bet you have never even got arrested, after getting drunk and getting in a fight.


I love my Elantra as I drive through our beautiful country. For weeks I've toured around, to watch tens of thousands of migrating snow & Canada geese in vast V-formations, drop from the sky & sweep to wonderful landings in wildlife regions with lovely, large ridge lines in the background. You like to drive & drink & fight with the police when they arrest you. The only background you see is the brick prison walls through gray bars. Its wonderful you teach your children such distinguished actions.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Tue 08 Nov 2016, 15:24:02

litesong wrote:
I love my Elantra as I drive through our beautiful country. For weeks I've toured around, to watch tens of thousands of migrating snow & Canada geese in vast V-formations, drop from the sky & sweep to wonderful landings in wildlife regions with lovely, large ridge lines in the background. You like to drive & drink & fight with the police when they arrest you. The only background you see is the brick prison walls through gray bars. Its wonderful you teach your children such distinguished actions.

Lighten up, Lite. I was mostly joking. Yeah, I have been drunk and in a few fights, but I pretty much gave that up nearly 40 years ago. Now I am an itinerant landscape photographer, mostly just touring the country in my van and hurting no one (and taking some pretty good pictures). And my kids and grandkids have turned out just fine. One son graduated from US Naval Academy in Annapolis, and the other retired from the Marine Corps after 20 years.
Gotta admit, I am still tempted to punch people once in a while, but I usually restrain myself. My boys give me too much hell for it.
And Rock, I really am bona fide oil field trash, but I retired, and now I'm just an old candy-ass.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 08 Nov 2016, 16:10:04

"...but I retired, and now I'm just an old candy-ass.". I'm almost there myself. The trick, which I'm sure you know, is to not let them figure out we've turned soft. And yes: I knew you were just teasing our buddy. Annapolis, eh? Congrats. I actually had a Congressional appointment there (or Kings Point) if I wanted to try. But I didn't want to waste everyone's time: not anywhere close academically capable. Had no choice but to become a geologist...or shoe salesman. LOL.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 16 Mar 2017, 12:43:39

Well, it appears that Ford was correct. The aluminum-bodied F-150 is again the best-selling vehicle in the USA, with a comfortable 200,000 unit lead over the #2 vehicle which is the Chevrolet Silverado pickup, and 450,000 more than the #3 vehicle which is the Dodge Ram 1500 pickup.

In fact, it is not until one reaches the #4 model, which is the Toyota Camry, that we see a relatively fuel-efficient car.

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/best-selling-vehicles-2016/list/

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160711/RETAIL01/307119917/f-150-sales-undented-by-chevy-attack-ad

These sales occurred in spite of the Chevy attack ad where they dumped jagged concrete into an aluminum F-150 bed and caused a hole. The popularity of the dealer optional spray-on bedliner for the F-150 was however increased by the Chevrolet ad.

What the heck, we haven't run out of oil yet, and probably will not for enough time for those new 2016 trucks to be replaced twice. BTW, the auto body shops are coping with the aluminum bodies by acquiring new body fillers and charging more for labor. The next checkpoint on Ford's aluminum truck venture will be in 10 years, when these trucks avoid showing the cosmetic effects of body rust - maybe replacement sales will be depressed then.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 16 Mar 2017, 13:44:50

vision-master wrote:Honda's? :lol:

Like that toad the Honda FIT with terrible gas mileage for a compact and slow as hell. Are they still running a 4 speed auto. lol :lol:

Hate to break it to ya but, Honda's are overpriced and if they are so great, where's the 100,000 mile power-train warranty?

This seems pretty unreasonable to me.

First, I don't buy Hondas, because I HATE the local dealer due to their repair service rep. so I'm not speaking out of loyalty here. However quality and efficiency wise, Hondas are simlar to Toyotas overall.

The reason makers like Honda and Toyota don't have 100,000 mile warranties is they don't need them. Their reputation speaks for itself. (Both Toyota and Honda have had some bad models and bad years, but overall, the quality and durability have been excellent compared to the competition).

Where you see 100,000 mile ten year warranties is where the manufactures HAVE NO CHOICE but to offer them, because of a history of reliability problems, resulting in a (well deserved) durability reputation issue.

Examples:

VW fuel injection for quite a while after it's disastrous introduction. (I know this, because I had the disastrous '69 squareback from my dad id college -- and its fuel injectors had to be replaced every 10,000 miles, as they were initially made out of RUBBER and didn't hold up).

Kia still has a 10 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. Korean cars had big durability/reliability problems 20ish years ago, and the long warranty has helped them sell cars. Now their cars tend to be more middle of the pack, but thus far, they've stuck with the long warranty, and marketed the heck out of it.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 16 Mar 2017, 13:56:59

vision-master wrote:
Hondas do not need 100K-mile warranties because it is known that Hondas are well built.
Chryslers need 100K-mile warranties or no one will buy them because they have a poor reliability record.
Go pick on Toyotas or something, vision-muffler.


Boring cheap cars, no thanks.

Too bad those Jap's can't build one of these.

Image

Those have terrible reliability and durability according to Consumer Reports.

I actually briefly considered such a car for fun, but the reliability/durability reputations of such cars from Dodge, the Mustang from Ford, and GM's muscle cars in general turned me off even more than the amount of gas such cars burn.

The Japanese build plenty of better competition from the likes of Infiniti and Lexus performance cars, formerly the Toyota Supra, etc. You get the zoom without the reliability problems.

And all such high performance cars are expensive and burn a lot of gas. So they seem an odd subject if we're truly worried about running out of oil and short term economic collapse, no?
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 16 Mar 2017, 13:57:17

Honda makes good products, my experience is that for an aging vehicle they are less rebuildable
and if so at much higher expense than Toyota Products, especially with transmissions and engines.
The two brands are about equal if you buy new and move on in a 5 to 7 year window. If you are
a skinflint, like me, the Yota emerges as a long distance runner. I think the Ford aluminum F-150
is a bridge too far for pickup trucks are beasts of burden,and cheap steel body parts keep the beast
servicable versus the hard issue of body work on aluminum that drives body module replacement
as about the only sensible route for a wreck repair.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 24 Mar 2018, 09:08:31

The Aluminum Ford F150 is Outselling the Steel Trucks by a Massive Margin

The people who insisted that the aluminum body introduced for the 2015 model year Ford F150 would cause a drop in sales were very wrong, as over the course of the past three years, sales numbers have skyrocketed as the aluminum trucks outsell the previous steel truck by a gigantic margin.

Back in 2014, Ford Motor Company introduced the 2015 F150. It had a new look, more power and – most significantly – body panels comprised from aluminum rather than steel. Many individuals in the truck community insisted that there was no way that an aluminum pickup would last, so no one would buy it. These people made lots of jokes about soda cans and some went so far as to insist that over time, sales numbers would dwindle due to the lightweight, aluminum body.

The aluminum-bodied F150 went on sale late 2014, so they have been readily available around the US and Canada for better than three years. Guess what? Not only have sales numbers not dwindled, but they are booming, with the current generation of the F150 outselling the 2014 model year by a bigger margin each year.

Annual F150 Sales Numbers

I have to start by pointing out the fact that Ford Motor Company does not break out F150 sales from the rest of the F-Series lineup. Their monthly and annual sales numbers are only available combined, but in speaking with some industry insiders with access to other numbers, we can figure out roughly how many half-ton trucks Ford sells each year.

By looking at production numbers rather than sales numbers for 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017, I found that production at the F-150 plants accounted for about 66% of total production while the plants that build the Super Duty accounted for the other 33% in 2014, 2015 and 2017. In 2016, there was a slightly larger ratio of half-ton to Super Duty, accounting of a production mix of 70% F150, 30% Super Duty.

By using those production ratios and applying them to annual sales, we can get a ballpark figure of F-150 sales for each of those four years. Mind you, this isn’t a perfect method of figuring out exact sales numbers, as the sales numbers at the beginning and end of each calendar year include models from the year before or year after, but I have been assured by an insider that this is an accurate means of coming to a ballpark figure for the F150.

Below is a table showing the calendar year, the F-Series sales total for that year, the half-ton-to-Super Duty mix for that year and the calculated rough number of F150 sales.

2014 - 743,851 – 66% - 490,942
2015 – 780354 – 66% - 515,034
2016 – 820,799 – 70% - 574,559
2017 – 896,764 – 66% - 591,864

Again, these are calculated figures and there could be slight variances in the actual ratio from month to month, but these are accurate ballpark sales numbers for the F-150. As you can see, the numbers have increased by more than a hundred thousand units annually since 2014, when most of the trucks sold were steel, to 2017, when all of the trucks sold are aluminum.

Now, I want to be clear that I am not saying that the sales of the F150 have grown strictly because of the move to an aluminum body. There are plenty of other factors that have played a role in the growth of F-Series sales over the past three years, but the bottom line here is that the lightweight aluminum body has most certainly not hurt F150 sales. Of course, it should also be noted that the aluminum-bodied Ford F150 and the newer aluminum Super Duty pickups are also comfortably outselling the steel-bodied pickups from General Motors and Ram, so there really hasn’t been any downside to Ford’s move to aluminum.

A special thanks to industry insiders who helped with the numbers here!


F-150 Aluminum
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 24 Mar 2018, 13:12:48

efarmer wrote:Honda makes good products, my experience is that for an aging vehicle they are less rebuildable
and if so at much higher expense than Toyota Products, especially with transmissions and engines.
The two brands are about equal if you buy new and move on in a 5 to 7 year window. If you are
a skinflint, like me, the Yota emerges as a long distance runner. I think the Ford aluminum F-150
is a bridge too far for pickup trucks are beasts of burden,and cheap steel body parts keep the beast
servicable versus the hard issue of body work on aluminum that drives body module replacement
as about the only sensible route for a wreck repair.

Whatever insurance costs increases there may be for the Aluminum parts are likely more than made up over time by fuel savings. It's not like those beast get good mileage.

GM tried the FUD thing re the bed, but cheap, effective truck liners are now commonplace and pretty much decimate that marketing claim.

And for a working truck with some years on it, let's not pretend the marginal small dent here or there is a big deal to people who use their trucks as trucks.
...
Aside from the Tacoma (every manufacturer has some bad vehicles, re relative reliability) I agree with you on the Toyota longevity thing. I'm strictly talking about folks who want to buy American trucks and the "wimpy" aluminum vs. "stout" steel argument, in practical financial terms.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby dissident » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 09:44:17

The fuel savings for a fully loaded truck from the use of aluminum are marginal. It is not like the weight of the pickup has been reduced by 50%. It's only a few hundred pounds which also includes the use of composites.

The real problem is the engine. The lawyer hive at the EPA cannot tolerate consumer diesels. A good diesel will last forever and save enormous amounts of fuel compared to any gasoline engine (of the same utility). Turbocharged gasoline engines that have better torque numbers and in some sense mimic diesels are gas guzzlers if you drive them hard. The same driving pattern will not guzzle diesel.

Hybrid options are basically unproven and involve the use of heavy batteries that do not last even 10 years. But they offer a much better solution than gasoline engines.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 10:37:57

dissident wrote:The lawyer hive at the EPA cannot tolerate consumer diesels.


What are you complaining about? The EPA doesn't really exist anymore thanks to Trump.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 11:15:59

Every pound saved in the vehicle weight has a tremendous impact in fuel savings over a quarter million miles or so. Plus a lighter vehicle is safer because it handles better, accelerates faster, and brakes in a shorter distance than the heavier steel vehicle. This particular truck has a body engineered to be stronger and stiffer than the steel design it replaced. Finally, there is the matter of rust resistance. I have lived in California for 35 years, but every time I venture into the salt belt, I am shocked at how much corrosion damages vehicles.
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Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby frankthetank » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 12:32:20

KaiserJeep wrote:Every pound saved in the vehicle weight has a tremendous impact in fuel savings over a quarter million miles or so. Plus a lighter vehicle is safer because it handles better, accelerates faster, and brakes in a shorter distance than the heavier steel vehicle. This particular truck has a body engineered to be stronger and stiffer than the steel design it replaced. Finally, there is the matter of rust resistance. I have lived in California for 35 years, but every time I venture into the salt belt, I am shocked at how much corrosion damages vehicles.


I have seen 2010 (newer?) vehicles with rust on them already (Chrysler seems to be by far the worst of the rust buckets up here). Usually wheel wells, bottoms of doors and trunk areas. They (aluminum) should also be very easy to recycle when they are done. Tesla Model S are aluminum..not sure about Model 3.
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