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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 12 Jan 2017, 19:38:45

You see, I believe that downed wood converts to loam and eventually to coal. Not all coals originate in swamps as peat.

But burning wood also releases nasty hydrocarbons and other chemicals that cause cancer. Even the catylytic combustor stoves and the wood gasification furnaces are very dirty heat sources.

Wind and solar are not.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 12 Jan 2017, 21:32:33

KaiserJeep wrote:You see, I believe that downed wood converts to loam and eventually to coal. Not all coals originate in swamps as peat.

But burning wood also releases nasty hydrocarbons and other chemicals that cause cancer. Even the catylytic combustor stoves and the wood gasification furnaces are very dirty heat sources.

Wind and solar are not.

I don't think there is any forest in the world today that is depositing vegetable matter that will end up as coal. It was a one time deal with atmospheric and climate conditions that were unique and cannot be repeated.
Rotting wood and leaves do end up as loam or topsoil but much of the carbon they contained while living has been released as CO2 during the rotting process.
But all the wood fires in the world,from cooking fires to forest fires covering square miles are minuscule compared to the oil and coal burned every day in the twenty first century.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Zarquon » Thu 12 Jan 2017, 23:46:59

baha wrote:So in other words, an 18% efficient PV panel only has to double one more time to be more efficient than the best tech you can offer.


I think the theoretical physical maximum of silicon cells is somewhere in the neighborhood of 32%, so there's no doubling of efficiency possible. Factor in various losses and the practical maximum efficiency is pretty close to what we have today. Multilayer cells are built for powering satellites, not anything you'll ever see on roofs. I'd say your 18% today is about as good as it gets.

Cell prices have dropped so far that they make up perhaps 30% or less of total system cost for a typical roof system, so even if the price dropped by half again, which is unlikely IMO, it would hardly matter.

So what we need to make a significant difference quickly is not more small PV installations on roofs. We need larger installations to power 10 or 50 or 500 houses each. As far as I understand it economy of scale is where you could squeeze some significant $$$ out of the equation.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 07:52:53

You could be right...I just like having control.

If a more efficient panel can be had on a satellite, it's only a matter of time before I can have one too. If fact the ones I have used to be used on satellites:) In the 7 years I have been working in solar a standard size panel has gone from 185 watts to 305. And if you pay top dollar (Sunpower) you can get 360. This is all from efficiency improvements.

And if you include solar thermal collectors your efficiency jumps to over 60% Of course this is only heat but that's all you get from FFs too.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 08:09:28

Did I mention the 50-75% more efficient panel is also 30% cheaper...
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 08:27:05

You've heard of Moore's law about semiconductors and transistors...

I'm going to call it 'Baha's law' Solar PV panels (which are made of semiconductors) will increase in output by an average of 10 watts every 6 months.

Of course I realize Moore's law just recently fell on it's face but he had a good run:)
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 08:35:55

baha wrote:You've heard of Moore's law about semiconductors and transistors...

I'm going to call it 'Baha's law' Solar PV panels (which are made of semiconductors) will increase in output by an average of 10 watts every 6 months.

Of course I realize Moore's law just recently fell on it's face but he had a good run:)

You still have long winter nights and cloudy days in Northern latitudes so there are hard limits to the amount of power that can possibly be generated by any given area of solar panel.
I do expect that over the next decade or so we will expand both solar and wind installations to the point that they provide about thirty percent of our electric power but after that unless battery storage becomes much cheaper we will reach a limit on what the grid can handle.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 09:13:58

If you want to hear the hard truth...over the next decade or so...The other 70% of folks will go dark and riot.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:03:19

baha wrote:If you want to hear the hard truth...over the next decade or so...The other 70% of folks will go dark and riot.

That is quite likely in Africa and south east Asia but I think unlikely in the USA. We still have quite a bit of oil and lots of coal to exploit and could get by without any imports at all. How to not get drawn into the riots is the tricky part.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kiwichick » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:50:58

even with grid storage I don't believe solar and wind will be the only sources of renewable energy......

apart from Hydro there is also potential for marine power .....some official estimates in Australia put wave power at approx. 10 % of Australia's current demand......

and for geothermal ......after all we are essentially sitting on molten rock.....its just that we have to drill deeper in some places
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:53:01

We won't be able to run what we're running now unless we figure out cold fusion or something.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 13 Jan 2017, 11:59:22

Revi wrote:We won't be able to run what we're running now ........

Do we need to? Do Americans need to drive their SUVs with one occupant fifteen thousand miles a year?
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby LulaNord » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 11:25:17

Hi everyone...i am a new user here. As per my knowledge in most lithium batteries, they are mostly aluminum, copper, electrolyte, and plastic separators. The US has lithium mines sitting idle because right now the price of lithium is too low. Lithium recycling probably isn't profitable right now for the same reason, though Toxco and Umicore are both working on recycling lithium batteries, more for the other components than the lithium.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby misterno » Thu 09 Mar 2017, 18:07:07

LulaNord wrote:As per my knowledge in most lithium batteries, they are mostly aluminum, copper, electrolyte, and plastic separators.


So what you are saying is there is no lithium in lithium batteries, or I am misunderstanding?
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 09 Mar 2017, 19:08:56

LulaNord wrote:The US has lithium mines sitting idle because right now the price of lithium is too low.
Lithium prices are on an upswing:

SQM is part of a global scramble to secure supplies of lithium by the world’s largest battery producers, and by end-users such as carmakers. That has made it the world’s hottest commodity. The price of 99%-pure lithium carbonate imported to China more than doubled in the two months to the end of December, to $13,000 a tonne.

Image
An increasingly precious metal

The reason the US doesn't produce more lithium is because we don't have much(we are part of that that tiny cyan sliver market "Other"):
Image

And what we do have is expensive and environmentally destructive to extract:

The extraction of lithium has significant environmental and social impacts, especially due to water pollution and depletion. In addition, toxic chemicals are needed to process lithium. The release of such chemicals through leaching, spills or air emissions can harm communities, ecosystems and food production. Moreover, lithium extraction inevitably harms the soil and also causes air contamination.
Tesla Motors' Dirty Little Secret Is a Major Problem

LulaNord wrote:Lithium recycling probably isn't profitable right now for the same reason, though Toxco and Umicore are both working on recycling lithium batteries, more for the other components than the lithium.
You need to differentiate between batteries in electronics and automotive batteries. Most automotive batteries, lithium or otherwise, are recycled.

Tesla's Closed Loop Battery Recycling Program

NISSAN SETS UP BATTERY RECYCLING PARTNERSHIP
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Will a New Glass Battery Accelerate the End of Oil?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 19:10:56

Will a New Glass Battery Accelerate the End of Oil?

By Mark Anderson
Posted 3 Mar 2017 | 21:30 GMT

Image
Photo: Cockrell School of Engineering
John Goodenough, coinventor of the lithium-ion battery, heads a team of researchers
developing the technology that could one day supplant it.


Electric car purchases have been on the rise lately, posting an estimated 60 percent growth rate last year. They’re poised for rapid adoption by 2022, when EVs are projected to cost the same as internal combustion cars. However, these estimates all presume the incumbent lithium-ion battery remains the go-to EV power source. So, when researchers this week at the University of Texas at Austin unveiled a new, promising lithium- or sodium-glass battery technology, it threatened to accelerate even rosy projections for battery-powered cars.

“I think we have the possibility of doing what we’ve been trying to do for the last 20 years,” says John Goodenough, coinventor of the now ubiquitous lithium-ion battery and emeritus professor at the Cockrell School of Engineering at the University of Texas, Austin. “That is, to get an electric car that will be competitive in cost and convenience with the internal combustion engine.” Goodenough added that this new battery technology could also store intermittent solar and wind power on the electric grid.

......


Remainder is at: http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/renewables/does-new-glass-battery-accelerate-the-end-of-oil?utm_source=Tech+Alert&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=TechAlert_03-09-17&bt_ee=Cb3P16TVSDi9vdIFS9P+GOuvYFg7x+/ahZWHEjgiqbvAaDb3ka5yGY9erOsPg0Br&bt_ts=1489070802826
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 12 Mar 2017, 23:21:29

Another article about John Goodenough and his latest battery invention:

http://www.alternet.org/environment/how-94-year-old-genius-may-save-planet

Goodenough’s new battery can store three times more energy than a comparable lithium-ion battery, according to the very serious Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE). The new battery also solves some other lithium-ion troubles. Like, it won’t catch fire, so a hoverboard won’t suddenly melt your kid’s Vans as she scoots across the playground. The IEEE also reports that Goodenough’s batteries seem to be able to soak up in minutes as much charge as a lithium-ion battery gets in hours.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 13 Mar 2017, 10:26:42

The new battery sounds interesting. It will be really interesting when they are made commercially and we discover the actual cost and utility. Until then EV will continue to fall further and further behind the production of ICE vehicles...last year 1.5 million vs 82 million. BTW some trivia: Where did the Cockrell School of Engineering come from? The school’s name honors the late Ernest Cockrell Jr., his wife Virginia and the Cockrell family of Houston, whose estate has developed the equivalent of a $220 million endowment for the school. A product of the depression, Ernest Cockrell Jr. was a self-made man, as was his father before him. Both earned their fortunes in the oil business. After working a short time for Texaco, Ernest Cockrell Jr. formed both an oil company, Producer’s Oil, and a drilling work-over company. When his father passed away in 1947, Ernest Cockrell Jr. also took over his father’s oil business.

Yes: the potential new battery that will "destroy the oil industry" had its funding come from a school funded partially by a fortune made in the oil industry. How we roll in Texas. LOL.
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