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When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 08 Jan 2017, 14:27:51

Cog wrote:
onlooker wrote:If you really want to stamp out Kings stamp out the very idea of them.


If you set out to kill the king, you better make sure you do it. Otherwise, its your neck in the noose.
Nah. All you have to do is defeat his army, or turn the soldiers. It helps to ransack and destroy the enemies industrial base. And starve the peasantry.

It's fun to keep a defeated leader around for a little while. Before your cruelty becomes too apparent. Then its HIS neck.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Whitefang » Sun 08 Jan 2017, 17:36:36

onlooker wrote:Ibon at least two of us think it can and/or will happen. Glad some of us here are not ready to give up on the Human experiment.


Count me in on that one!

Yup, somehow along with agriculture we got into this mess of kings and queens, hassle of have and have only nuts to play with...lol.
This world we talk of is a personal playground, you and your death.
Fortunately we are not such idiots as we act and do to others and ourselves, one can learn to overcome fear and ambition, our first true human enemy.
Fear is only a sticky internal dialogue that humans tend to keep until the end.

We will return to self government, no need for social institutions, kings or even teachers.
The only thing we have to give up on is our personality and idea that everything is fixed, static.
Our importance and self pity takes up all our energy for true exploration into the unknown, we bleed energy by talking BS to ourselves and therefore keep repeating our sinfull ways, our actions that destroy our habitat and now 7.4 billion with more and more complex machines that will not ever make us happy.

This bubble got to go boom blast bang before anything new can grow, a life in harmony with others and our habitat, nature. A return to our true self, a return home, a renaissance.

Ohhh....way of topic......I think MBS, Sam C. wich is Guy McP. is right with the next decade for a collapse of humanity, billions will die in the near future, no way to get around that one.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 08 Jan 2017, 18:00:11

OL,
Those emotions, positive and negative,mare not mutually exclusive. They can and reside is all of us and they can express themselves very strongly at the same time. What I suspect you are missing is tribalism (nationalism, patriotism, religious fervor, whatever.). We can be kind, empathetic, caring, loving etc. amongst our own group while perpetrating autrocities against other groups during the same 24 hours.

Subjectivist is right, it's instinctual. As always I just don't see the feedbacks that will erase that prior behavioir.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 08 Jan 2017, 18:21:06

Your point of view is interesting to me Newfie, because I do not think my opinion or yours or anyone's is the right answer as no right answer exists. We, humanity are still a work in progress. The group orientation is natural given our history and certain instincts. However, the irony at this moment in time is that the Internet and the predicament we ALL find ourselves in seems to be creating a sense of solidarity among everyone. We are being given access to certain cues of empathy. In hearing, seeing and knowing about the struggle of many around the world. Look I have no illusions because illusions are for dreamers. I can only say that we have potentials and if indeed as Ibon has said we come out of this horrendous bottleneck, we can and according to Ibon will have a totally new perspective with regards to ourselves and to our place in Nature.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 08 Jan 2017, 18:24:37

Your (and Ibons) word in Gods ear.

We will never know. And I don't seek to wreck hope, although I can see how I could be accused of that. I just can't follow the path you are taking, too much the atheist.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Squilliam » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 16:42:29

The problem with pessimism is that negative objects tend to appear bigger and closer than they actually are. The problem with optimism is that it's the tendency to get used to whatever is happening around you and frame that in a positive light.

The way I interpret the world right now is that we're in a period of great political and ideological flux. The present day truths that sustained ideological positions don't make sense anymore. The world is looking for new ways of structuring and ordering itself in light of economic systemic incongruities. It feels a lot like the start of the 20th century in a lot of ways.

Things are just too convoluted to really predict anything. So far the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns have been kind to us. Even something as basic as a relatively large volcanic eruption is enough to disrupt world systems. The only thing that is really constant is ourselves. Every bad deed humans have done was done with the same equipment in the brain we have now. We are probably our own worst enemies, but how our own natures will be challenged is still up in the air.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 17:18:32

"It feels a lot like the start of the 20th century in a lot of ways. "

Was that supposed to make us feel optimistic?? :-D :-D

The first half of that century went very nicely, after all, only two world wars and one global ten-plus year economic depression! :lol: :shock: :? :razz: :oops: :cry:
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 17:24:15

Nice observations Squil. I can only speak for myself but while human agency is certainly always important ,my views are shared by some on this site, that at this point we are facing predicaments that defy easy solutions and in fact require that we adjust our consciousness, outlook and expectations. Meaning we must adapt in how we live but above all in our mind and hearts. Some here do not believe we can as we are hardwired to be as we are. I do not subscribe to this axiom. I believe we possess great flexibility in how we act and think. I remind you that conversely, Every good deed humans have done was done with the same equipment in the brain we have now. Having said all that we have already disturbed the natural world so much, that Earth being a life supporting planet is no longer guaranteed
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 17:36:34

Nice summary, ol

I can't remember whether I've asked you whether you are familiar with The Dark Mountain Project. You might find it worth while to browse around in, if you haven't yet. As good a place to start as any is their/his 'Manifesto.'

http://dark-mountain.net/about/manifesto/
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 17:49:26

"The Project grew out of a feeling that contemporary art and literature were failing to respond honestly or adequately to the scale of our entwined ecological, economic and social crises. We believe that writing and art have a crucial role to play in coming to terms with this reality, and in questioning its foundations."
Image
Yeah. More dance, less oil. 8)
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Squilliam » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 18:18:59

dohboi wrote:"It feels a lot like the start of the 20th century in a lot of ways. "

Was that supposed to make us feel optimistic?? :-D :-D

The first half of that century went very nicely, after all, only two world wars and one global ten-plus year economic depression! :lol: :shock: :? :razz: :oops: :cry:


Well geopolitically a lot of similar events are taking place. At the start of the 20th century the number 1 player (British Empire) in decline, number 2 (Germany) was a rapidly rising upstart and number 3 (France) upset at their loss of relevancy. Contrast that with today and you've got the U.S. China and Russia playing 1,2,3 respectively. So with Russia starting to look a little more friendly towards the U.S. the old enmity may be giving way to a kind of friendship that makes the number 2 player feel very uncomfortable. The U.S. has less reason to be upset at Russia anymore because China is a problem for them both. What happens if for instance Russia and the U.S. decide that they are going to be best buds from now on? This has happened before (remember France was always the old enemy of Britain).

Ideologically there are some major shifts going on. The left is replacing the right as the religious nutjobs because of their belief in things like social constructivism. In effect you could call it neo-puritanism because of the desire for ideological purity with things like political correctness creating a new concept of blasphemy. Now the right is the 'anti-establishment' arm of the ideological sphere because the left has won most of the ideological battles and is now settled in as the leading intellectual framework. There is a huge change brewing within the cultural, economic and political spaces because people know that the old ways of operating no longer function well, so they are desperate to find something new to replace them. There is also a generational divide with baby boomers holding onto political power for so long that once they are gone rapid changes that they have suppressed will likely happen relatively quickly. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/worl ... cracy.html Even the idea of democracy being the most ideal has been shredded amongst the youngest people. Reforms to things like democracy in the U.S. could make radical changes even more likely as it would enfranchise more radical forces.

If you consider something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs&t=1s (The rule for rulers). You can see that a lot of what happens in politics is just window dressing. The issues remain the same whether you're a dictator or a democratically elected politician. You need to keep your key supporters happy (middle classes are the biggest voting blocks), but also key interest groups on ideological grounds. If you wonder why most of the benefits go to older white middle class Americans for instance just look at who votes. Everyone buys votes really because most people vote for their own interests. Where it gets messy is when the treasure gets smaller. It becomes very hard to pay off your key supporters, so whether you're a dictatorship like Syria with economic and ecological problems or a democracy the same factors apply to bring these systems down.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 18:21:43

dohboi wrote:Nice summary, ol

I can't remember whether I've asked you whether you are familiar with The Dark Mountain Project. You might find it worth while to browse around in, if you haven't yet. As good a place to start as any is their/his 'Manifesto.'

http://dark-mountain.net/about/manifesto/

I heard of it but will now read more into it. Thanks for link D :)
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 18:31:31

You're welcome, ol.

And welcome to the fray, S. Just noticed that you've just started posting here.

That being said, your first paragraph is at best vague generalities, your second is partisan nonsense and...I couldn't bring myself to continue to read after that! :)

Do enjoy the friendly banter here and don't take anything too much to heart, or too seriously, least of all any of my screeds! :-D
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Squilliam » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 19:16:49

dohboi wrote:You're welcome, ol.

And welcome to the fray, S. Just noticed that you've just started posting here.

That being said, your first paragraph is at best vague generalities, your second is partisan nonsense and...I couldn't bring myself to continue to read after that! :)

Do enjoy the friendly banter here and don't take anything too much to heart, or too seriously, least of all any of my screeds! :-D


Haha technically I only recently revived an old account (been here officially since 2013). I have a thick skin from there, so I'm not too worried. :twisted:

One of my favourite terms from The Oil Drum was 'justification after the fact'. Politics really is just one huge post-hoc fallacy. Nowadays given the brave new world we operate in the level of discourse is even more emotional. It's almost an equation that goes something like this: Emotion + justification = headline. In other words: "Man clubs baby seal" is just as emotional a statement as "Man clubs 1000 baby seals". Emotions don't deal in quantity, but the quantity is still important because it plays a part in the rationalisation step people do afterwards. In hindsight one baby seal may not be enough to justify staying outraged, but 1000 may very well be.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 21:42:23

yes, we project our fantasies and delusions upon the screen of perception

but maybe...just maybe...once in a billion bluish lunar cycles...perhaps...sometimes...occasionally...once in a while...we can point out to each other where we have been duped and hoodwinked and propagandized into a view that is not quite rational, a view that perhaps, maybe, we would not quite what we otherwise would have taken.

I have actually had such moments occasionally here, and I prize them deeply (though I would not tell most here what they were, for the sake of loss of face and all that garbage...)...

But...as I am running out now of ellipsis points, I'll just mention that dragging out the old canard of "PC" generally triggers in me a perception that the one who has done the dragging out is very likely to be talking from a script that they are not completely aware of or are not completely in control of.

And if they are in fact, that is perhaps even more...concerning (oops, there's more ellipses marks...I guess I had a few more of them...and there they are again...aggggghhhhhhhhhh
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Squilliam » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 22:29:21

The problem of enlightenment (if this place is anything like The Oil Drum) is that once you see things in an entirely new way it becomes difficult to 'unsee' them. Like for instance getting a handle on the importance of energy, technology as well as insight to the non-renewable nature of much of it (once it's gone it's gone). I came to the realization that it was crazy that people worked 'so hard' to receive 'so little', and that modern social structures are a more sophisticated form of slavery. In my case for instance I pay $2400 a month rent, 300 power and internet and $1500 in taxes etc, and whilst a lot of my taxes go towards people that are poorer than me my rent on the other hand is all going to people that are significantly better off than me to in effect subsidise their lifestyles. So what do you do when you realize that society itself is structured against your own best interests? Opting out or doubling down (working harder/smarter) are the two most rational courses of action, but both are troublesome -- that's the real dilemma.

The reason why I don't like neo-puritanism (PC) is that it has the same fundamental flaws of puritan Christianity. You still have the same sins like the original sin (privilege), and you have to constantly watch yourself because you might fall into sin (racism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, transphobia, islamophobia or whatever). Also the devil himself is patriarchy. Of course like anything there are some real positives to adherence because much of what the goals on the surface would make the world a better place if you followed them. However like the religious thought it is similar to it is full of inconsistency and hypocrisy. Like the fat priest that preaches against the sin of gluttony the ones that seem to be the biggest sinners within this belief system are also the biggest proponents. Finally instead of promoting a positive message of trying to make a better world in reality people are kept in line with fear of being ostracised, and of being cast out.

TLDR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwYd5cRlROE Ain't no rest for the triggered. :-P
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby sparky » Sun 12 Mar 2017, 08:57:54

.
@Squilliam
comparing today's geopolitics to the early 20th century is on the surface an easy fit !
one should be wary of it
for a start the ,then, world powers went into a sure thing war ... back home for Christmas
and got dragged into a tens of millions deads war ,bankrupting their national wealth , crashing three empires
and setting up the ground for an even worst replay
just imagine if those fine civilized gentlemen had had nuclear weapons

as for the triangle US ,china ,Russia
the number two and three at the time were pretty much at each other throat
while now , number one is sucking bodily parts of number two
while crossing an ocean and a continent to piss on number three shoes
certainly there are lines of confluences ,
but please do not assume that the past is the same truth
it only tell you that the mistakes are the same
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Squilliam » Sun 12 Mar 2017, 13:59:16

@Sparky: It seems we can either fail to learn from the past and repeat our mistakes, or learn from the past and innovate to create entirely new mistakes.

I wasn't saying that we would be going into a world war, but the idea that a limited conflict over say the South China Sea could happen isn't entirely out of the question.

We're at a point whereby the old political orders are being shaken up. If one country is in relative decline from the number 1 position and another is rising up to meet them then there is always going to be a level of tension.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby sparky » Sun 12 Mar 2017, 16:14:17

.
I get your point , but an alternative reading of the situation is that number 1 is making a bid to be the supremo of all
in a way which was never seen before ,
something on that scale truly stagger the mind , it allow number 1 to tax the whole world for its sustenance ,
every country would have to contribute to its welfare accepting its IOU paper in exchange for "protection" .
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby M_B_S » Sun 19 Mar 2017, 03:38:55

@pstarr for sure

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/--BDSFg0Osfg/ ... b-2017.png

The trend is YOUR friend dear Peak Oiler and the death of mankind could be beautiful if you have a sister like this one celebrating it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hqc5VKdoQjs

TURN the MUSIC LOUDER
"Vide Cor Meum"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udMLOGZf5d4

I am afraid i have bad news for you.....

when you have a beautiful wife you love?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYwv7-YkhKs

This is great cinema

PEAK OIL
I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat.

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