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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 05:55:15

That totally supports my point. All the existing infrastructure we have built over the last 100 years to support FFs is deteriorating. Do we want to spend more good money on bad technology or do we want to move forward.

Tesla has given us another choice.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 06:20:21

And now we a nuclear plant in Boston spiking with radiation (not to mention Fukashima). This will be a re-occurring theme over the next few decades.

Of course I admit, if you get too much Solar radiation, you might get a tan:)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 06:48:57

Ok, back to batteries. Again there is a misunderstanding about capacity. In the old lead-acid days the manufacturer's spec gave you the total capacity of the battery. How much you use to prevent damage is up to you.

Tesla rates batteries at 100% discharge. The control system will stop discharging the batteries before you reach the point of damage. They achieve this by making the actual capacity much higher than the advertised capacity. The underlying capacity is not my concern. I only want to use these batteries to their advertised capacity every day for the next 8 years. And if they fail Tesla will replace them.

That's another issue about Solar power you should know. I am the service manager at our company (cause I can fix anything). I know more than anyone how reliable this stuff is. And the best part is the support I get from manufacturers. If there is a failure, I call Tech support, we run a few tests, and if needed they send me a new piece of equipment under warranty no problem. No back and forth, no fine print, just new equipment in the mail.

And if there was only two weeks left on the warranty, you still get new equipment...no pro-rating.
Last edited by baha on Sat 07 Jan 2017, 07:27:07, edited 1 time in total.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 07:23:41

There are countless different types of Lithium batteries. Different chemistries and materials. That's why there are two types of Tesla batteries. One is for daily cycles and the other is for occasional backup. The makeup of these batteries is different.

The daily cycle battery is designed to cycle...if you leave it fully charged for a long period it will be unhappy. It is meant to be used.

The backup battery is designed to wait. If you cycle it every day it will degrade.

So you need to know what you plan to do with it.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 07:40:56

baha wrote:There are countless different types of Lithium batteries. Different chemistries and materials. That's why there are two types of Tesla batteries. One is for daily cycles and the other is for occasional backup. The makeup of these batteries is different.

The daily cycle battery is designed to cycle...if you leave it fully charged for a long period it will be unhappy. It is meant to be used.

The backup battery is designed to wait. If you cycle it every day it will degrade.

So you need to know what you plan to do with it.

Would you happen to know off hand how much lithium Tesla's Giga factory will consume per year?
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 08:17:00

Don't have a number, I'm sure it's significant...But what you are talking about is more jobs. http://fortune.com/2016/03/29/lithium-t ... ne-nevada/

There will be new infrastructure built and jobs created and who knows what the $ tradeoff will be...but it leads in a sustainable direction. Just like Aluminum, Lithium will be cheaper to recycle than mine. Unlike FFs it will still be in there after the battery is dead.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 09:13:12

baha wrote:Don't have a number, I'm sure it's significant...But what you are talking about is more jobs. http://fortune.com/2016/03/29/lithium-t ... ne-nevada/

There will be new infrastructure built and jobs created and who knows what the $ tradeoff will be...but it leads in a sustainable direction. Just like Aluminum, Lithium will be cheaper to recycle than mine. Unlike FFs it will still be in there after the battery is dead.

I was just contemplating the dent that Giga factory would make in the worlds supply.
I've found that current production is about 35,000 tonnes a year and that is expected to more then double shortly. Also from various sources prices can vary from $10,000 to $25,000 per tonne but some of that was stock scam hype.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 10:00:35

In case you haven't figured it out, I've already invested in Tesla:)

I think my next purchase will be Lithium mining.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 11:47:22

I will mention that I invested $7500 in the Cape Wind offshore wind farm about a decade ago. Although Obama called it "shovel ready" in 2007 during his first campaign, I have slowly realized that I am never going to see any return on that money.

I have also related the cost of PV electricity here in sunny California in a message in this thread dated May 21, 2016. My grid-attached solar roof produces energy at a cost of $0.31/kWh. In an off-grid situation, the cost with Powerwall batteries would be $0.59/kWh, because I would need more panels plus batteries. I should note that I am a retired Electrical Engineer and I have been monitoring my PV roof for what will be 7 years in July of this year. The cost of Chinese-made PV panels has decreased by about 35% during that same period, but labor costs have increased slightly, today that same solar roof would be implemented at an electricity cost of about $0.28/kWh.

You appear to be confusing the ongoing costs of capital expenditures with fuel costs for power generation. Solar PV has zero fuel costs but very high capital expenditures and these are even higher with battery storage. My 2.8 kVA rooftop solar is both undersized for off-grid usage and lacks battery storage. I am in a near-ideal location for solar power in sunny California and in a near-ideal regulatory environment, with both Federal tax rebates and State of California tax rebates under the CSI (California Solar Initiative), and state-mandated "net metering", which forces the power company to purchase back my piddly little 2.8kW of power at retail electricity rates.

I would not be willing to teach you the mathematics of Capex in this forum, it is a long and involved discussion, and I would recommend an Economics textbook instead. I will summarize what is happening when I say that the Feds and the State of California are overcharging everybody around me for their electricity and rewarding those of us with Solar PV by in effect giving us OPM (other people's money). That $0.28/kWh is expensive electricity for a US state, but the CARB (California Air Resources Board) has increased the cost of electricity in this state with decades of tinkering. The US average cost for grid electricity is about 1/3rd lower than in California, and the wholesale electrical cost is about $0.12/kWh for the "green" electricity that we buy from Texas. (Note that these are burdened costs, not simple cost-of-fuel figures.)

Bottom line is that because of all the government meddling with grid electricity, I have saved about $2200 on my electrical bill in six and a half years. In a state without solar incentives I would be paying a lot less for power, consequently there would also be fewer reasons to add PV panels to my roof.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 17:39:46

Thanks KJ,
Real data is always welcome and I appreciate your support of alternatives.

CA definitely has the best incentives. But unless you overproduce the price they pay you doesn't matter. Most people net-metering are just using the grid as a battery, they're lucky if they can overproduce over a years time.

And as far as your neighbors paying for your power, that's as it should be...we are all paying for the effects of burning FFs too.

Solar prices are dropping fast, lots more than 35% in the last 7 years, I don't know the number because my interest lies in the science, not the finance. But when my system is complete I will enjoy analyzing the results. I also worked for the Navy as a EE for 20 years, but my degree is in Physics. Read science geek:)

I know lifestyles will have to change. We cannot continue to waste power like we do now. I am a special case in that my power needs are very low. My house is almost at a passive house level and small. That means the capital investment on PV up front is small. And I will get my equipment at wholesale prices. I estimate my breakeven is 8 years even with the batteries. Because I only need one battery and 5 kilowatts of PV. Actually I only need 3.8 kw to be net zero but overcapacity allows me to charge the battery faster.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby diemos » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 18:11:53

KaiserJeep wrote: I will summarize what is happening when I say that the Feds and the State of California are overcharging everybody around me for their electricity and rewarding those of us with Solar PV by in effect giving us OPM (other people's money).


The grid operators have been putting up with this because it put off the day when they would have to site and build new power lines. An expensive regulatory nightmare.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 18:33:25

diemos wrote:-snip-

The grid operators have been putting up with this because it put off the day when they would have to site and build new power lines. An expensive regulatory nightmare.


Yes, quite correct. However the present regulatory environment is also much more optimal for implementing renewable energies while taking advantage of an uneven playing field.

In my planned move to Wisconsin and my hoped-for newly-constructed passive home, I hope to have Tesla's solar roofing and Powerwall batteries over both house and garage and a wind turbine which will still be charging on cold Winter nights. The house design we have settled on is a distinct style called Early New England saltbox:
Image
Hopefully, the Tesla roofing will be on the larger roof area, facing S, with perhaps more such solar PV on the garage, since I plan to have at least on longer-ranged EV.

The basic idea is a superinsulated home, all electric, off-grid, energy plus design, that requires no hydrocarbons be burned - not even wood - for HVAC or cooking or other systems. I believe that this can be done for a price premium of +35% over simple building-code-compliant home design.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 18:43:33

diemos wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote: I will summarize what is happening when I say that the Feds and the State of California are overcharging everybody around me for their electricity and rewarding those of us with Solar PV by in effect giving us OPM (other people's money).


The grid operators have been putting up with this because it put off the day when they would have to site and build new power lines. An expensive regulatory nightmare.

Interesting diemos. Never considered that. :)

The visionaries here used to discuss a distributed local electric generation/consumption, with backup grid connect. See Lovin's Hydrogen Economy.

It included Hypercars, small lightweight and truly efficient EV's and solar-fuel cell hydrogen storage. Truly a system for an energy-efficient local economy. We've done none of that. Tesla hot rods are just a limited and marketable version of what could have been great. :cry:
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 19:18:36

In fact, the power grid high tension high voltage transmission lines are designed for longevity and low maintenance expenses. The problem is with the "last mile" power transmission which often involves wooden poles, overloaded transformers, and crappy contractor-installed, barely compliant building wiring, all poorly protected from lightning strikes.

If I was a power company, I'd be all in favor of grid-attached distributed solar, which would make my life less annoying. However those off-grid residences would be worrisome, if your business was generating power (or buying it wholesale) and selling it retail.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 07 Jan 2017, 19:51:02

KaiserJeep wrote:In fact, the power grid high tension high voltage transmission lines are designed for longevity and low maintenance expenses. The problem is with the "last mile" power transmission which often involves wooden poles, overloaded transformers, and crappy contractor-installed, barely compliant building wiring, all poorly protected from lightning strikes.

If I was a power company, I'd be all in favor of grid-attached distributed solar, which would make my life less annoying. However those off-grid residences would be worrisome, if your business was generating power (or buying it wholesale) and selling it retail.

There was a solution to those problems a long long long time ago. Back before we privatized every damn thing that is tied down. Or running wild. Things worked back in the day.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Sun 08 Jan 2017, 07:25:07

These batteries are not intended to be a market manipulation device. To buy power at low rates and sell at high rates is a money making scheme worthy of TPTB and works about as well as they do.

But battery plus PV is a different story. When I install PV, Duke power will force me to change to a time of day payment plan. It is to their advantange because when prices are high loads are high and a PV system may not carry the entire load. Therefore they get max value from you when you are needy.

With a battery system I can chose when to give my free power back to Duke (if at all). If, over a 24 hour period I overproduce, I can chose to put it out on the grid when rates are highest to get max value from them. I just love sticking it to 'the man':)

I will also add an Eguage power monitoring system. So I will know where my power comes from and where it goes. I will have complete control of my destiny.
Last edited by baha on Sun 08 Jan 2017, 07:45:22, edited 1 time in total.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 08 Jan 2017, 07:34:30

KaiserJeep wrote:
diemos wrote:-snip-

The grid operators have been putting up with this because it put off the day when they would have to site and build new power lines. An expensive regulatory nightmare.


Yes, quite correct. However the present regulatory environment is also much more optimal for implementing renewable energies while taking advantage of an uneven playing field.

In my planned move to Wisconsin and my hoped-for newly-constructed passive home, I hope to have Tesla's solar roofing and Powerwall batteries over both house and garage and a wind turbine which will still be charging on cold Winter nights. The house design we have settled on is a distinct style called Early New England saltbox:
Image
Hopefully, the Tesla roofing will be on the larger roof area, facing S, with perhaps more such solar PV on the garage, since I plan to have at least on longer-ranged EV.

The basic idea is a superinsulated home, all electric, off-grid, energy plus design, that requires no hydrocarbons be burned - not even wood - for HVAC or cooking or other systems. I believe that this can be done for a price premium of +35% over simple building-code-compliant home design.

That is an awfully big saltbox for a retired couple. How many grandkids do you have coming to visit?
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 10 Jan 2017, 01:39:48

baha wrote:And as far as your neighbors paying for your power, that's as it should be...we are all paying for the effects of burning FFs too.
They had the same thought in Spain and Nevada. But it turns out government subsidies were not as stable as some hoped. One day the government decided they were going to cut the gravy train of Solar subsidies. And the Solar industry in Spain & Nevada collapsed as a result.

One of the main producers of renewable energy in Europe, Spain’s solar industry, is edging toward bankruptcy. Producers say they’ll be unable to repay credits after the government’s decision to cut subsidies. Banks will suffer and jobs will be lost.

Energy Minister José Manuel Soria has introduced a new compensation plan for calculating levels of "reasonable profitability" for renewable-energy production, distribution and transportation. It will reduce payments to companies serving the nation's electrical system by up to 2.7 billion euro annually. It’s hoped the move could help cope with the electricity system deficit that has been growing since 2005 and now exceeds 25 billion euro.

Experts are warning that with the increased levies on self-consumed solar energy so high many households will have to pay more for the electricity they generate themselves than they would for regular grid power. The main trade association for Spain's electric utilities which distribute most the country's electricity said "the cuts will compel our member companies to undertake a drastic reduction in jobs and review their investments in Spain"

Spain has over 4GW of installed capacity. For several years the government reportedly pushed electricity retailers to pay above-market, unaffordable prices to renewable-power producers. In 2012 clean energy subsidies in Spain hit 8.6 billion euro, nearly 1 percent of GDP. To fund the expansion, Spanish banks lent the solar-energy companies nearly 30 billion euro. Potential loan defaults could worsen the already heavy burden on Spanish banks.
Spain’s solar industry to collapse

Louise Helton, owner of One Sun Solar Electric in Las Vegas, says that since January her company is doing more work removing solar panels from rooftops than installing them. “During the recession, rooftop solar was the bright spot in the Nevada economy,” Helton tells DeSmog. “We were booming. And now we’re dead.”

By removing a key incentive for rooftop solar customers — net metering — the PUC made it prohibitively expensive for existing and future solar customers to use solar panels to generate part or all or their electricity needs. And it turned electricity-generating rooftop panels from a net-plus for homeowners to a technological albatross.

“Seniors have tried to make the right decision to preserve their future dollars. All of this is impacting them. Now the value of your greatest asset, a home, and the equity, for solar panels to present themselves as something that was a huge asset, now they’re the opposite. It’s devastating.”

Nevada Hemorrhages Solar Jobs
Since January, national rooftop solar companies SolarCity and Sunrun have stopped seeking new business in the state and laid off hundreds of workers. The few small companies left are trying to stay above water and telling potential customers to be patient and wait out the storm. “My feeling is 80 percent of all (small solar) companies are gone”
We Were Booming and Now We're Dead" — How Nevada's Solar Industry Bright Spot Turned Dark
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Tue 10 Jan 2017, 08:16:24

The fact that nothing the government does is stable is why we are all here. The real problem is no one is paying $ for the damage caused by FFs...yet!
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby baha » Wed 11 Jan 2017, 15:23:11

The question has been raised as to whether renewables can power the next technological revolution...I guess we are going to find out.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/11/tesla-wi ... -farm.html

Does anyone wonder why Tesla bought Solar City?
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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