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Economics vs. ETP

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 00:24:53

vtsnowedin wrote:
shortonoil wrote:"US Stocks in Million Barrels...

Crude Oil (Excluding SPR) -5.3 to 468.7
Total Motor Gasoline +2.5 to 228.0
Distillate Fuel Oil -1.3 to 155.7
Other Oils +0.4 to 488.0"


See graph half way down page:

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... ct-10-2016

Now -- just how stupid do you think the readership here is? Apparently pretty. You post one week of EIA data when the inventory went down. It has gone down every year at this time for the last 30. Pathetic!

What none sense are you talking about? The red line in the graph you link to has been going down sense June. You can read can't you?



Vtsnowdin is correct. I reviewed all 40 weeks of data so far for 2016 and here is what took place.
The first 26 weeks of the year, from beginning of January through the end of June there were 16 weeks with stock builds and 10 weeks with stock draws. Nevertheless inventory over those 26 weeks built a total of 59.2 million barrels in total storage.

From weeks 27 through 40 beginning July 1 and ending September 30 there are 14 weekly reports. Three weeks were draws, one week was in perfect balance and 10 weeks were builds. Total inventory change over those 14 weeks was a build of 4.5 million barrels in total storage.

Starting with October the EIA changed their calculation of commercial inventory by removing the 30.6 million of leased oil stocks. That creates a discontinuity between data for the first 40 weeks of the year and the last 2 weeks. There is nothing to be done about it other than to break calculations apart on each side of the discontinuity to prevent confusion by comparing apples to apples.

In the two weeks after the data changeover there have been additional stockpile draws of 8.7 Million barrels from inventory. When added to the 4.5 million barrel build we get (+4.5)+(-8.7) = -4.2, IOW a total stock draw of 4.2 million barrels to date in the second half of the year.

Subtracting the -30.6 inventory change from the discontinuity to the start of 2016 we get a beginning total inventory of 1977.1 for initial inventory and 2035.5 we get a total build to date of 58.4 million barrels. That works out to a weekly average of 1.39 million barrel build for the 42 weeks so far elapsed this year.

However it should also be noted that inventory only built one week in September. Of the last seven reports there was one build, one neutral and five draws for an inventory change of -33.7 million barrels taken from storage. That works out to a weekly average of -4.81 million barrel draw for these 7 weeks.

Subtracting the -4.2 draw for the second half to date from the 59.2 million barrel build in first half 2016 give a yearly storage build of 55.0 MM/bbl so far in 2016. If the draw rate continues to average -4.81/MM/bbl/week then in 11.43 weeks stockpiles will be where they were January 1, 2016. That actually puts us into 2017 as there are only 10 weeks remaining in this calendar year, but it is now plausible that stockpiles starting in January 2017 will be equivalent to what they were in January 2016. January 2016 was 167.7 MM/bbl above January 2015. January 2016 was 257.9 above January 2014, which was the January before the price crash of second half 2014 and is treated as 'normal'.

Taking the 55/MM/bbl cumulative build in 2016 to date plus this 257.9/MM/bbl difference between 'normal' and December 31, 2015 there are 312.9/MM/bbl of 'excess' commercial storage available to draw upon. If the average draw rate remains -4.81 a week for the medium term future it will take 65 weeks to return to 'normal' stockpile levels around the third week of January 2018.

If anything disrupts oil production rates between now and then the draw could take place more quickly, or if higher prices stimulate more fracking in the Bakken and Eagle Ford the draw could take place more slowly. Pick your choice and take your chances.

Compared to the 1980's with the Iran-Iraq war ending with the First Gulf War in the dawn of the 1992 the last three years have been relatively peaceful in the Persian Gulf. Iraq is producing the most oil it ever has and Iran is close to its pre sanction levels, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are producing strongly.

Comparatively speaking these four states are the core of OPEC and they are all pumping pretty hard ATM. Any kind of conflict on a broad scale in the Persian Gulf affecting one or more of these four countries would have a significant impact on world oil supply.

Looking at the 2001-2013 period there was a whole lot of trouble in one or more of these four major players at any randomly selected time. ISIS has been a very bad thing, but ultimately its impact on oil production in Iraq has been limited. ISIS never effectively penetrated the Iranian, Kuwaiti or Saudi Arabian oil production and distribution so once they were contained in Iraq things have gone remarkably well. Unlike the insurgents of the 2003-2013 period ISIS wasn't trying to lower Iraq's ability to produce and sell oil, they wanted to operate those resource extraction efforts to finance themselves.

On the other side of the coin ISIS could decide that they are about to lose and go for the mayhem scorched earth approach and start blowing up or otherwise damaging the oil pipelines and facilities that have allowed Iraq to reach all new levels of production.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby Observerbrb » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 07:19:40

US will probably enter in recession next year. I don't see how Oil demand could rise and inventories rebalance if it finally happens.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... m-gathers/
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 08:06:15

Observerbrb wrote:US will probably enter in recession next year. I don't see how Oil demand could rise and inventories rebalance if it finally happens.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... m-gathers/

They could always reduce imports to the US by 5mb/d until the extra in storage is used up. The guys that filled their storage at $31/bl can sell it for $50/bl and make a nice profit plus stop their storage costs. Unless they think prices have higher to go yet they should be selling.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 08:16:03

Tanada wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
shortonoil wrote:"US Stocks in Million Barrels...

Crude Oil (Excluding SPR) -5.3 to 468.7
Total Motor Gasoline +2.5 to 228.0
Distillate Fuel Oil -1.3 to 155.7
Other Oils +0.4 to 488.0"


See graph half way down page:

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... ct-10-2016

Now -- just how stupid do you think the readership here is? Apparently pretty. You post one week of EIA data when the inventory went down. It has gone down every year at this time for the last 30. Pathetic!

What none sense are you talking about? The red line in the graph you link to has been going down sense June. You can read can't you?



Vtsnowdin is correct. I reviewed all 40 weeks of data so far for 2016 and here is what took place.
The first 26 weeks of the year, from beginning of January through the end of June there were 16 weeks with stock builds and 10 weeks with stock draws. Nevertheless inventory over those 26 weeks built a total of 59.2 million barrels in total storage. ........

.

Thanks Tanada but you posted this in the wrong thread. My post is over in the ETP Q&A thread.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 11:44:44

I hate when that happens. This new computer and Windows 10 stink on ice!
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 14 Nov 2016, 00:25:33

A lot of words for something that you disagree with. "I think thy protest too much" (Shakespeare)

The Etp Model is an EQUATION

One that can be found in any engineering text book for the last 100 years>

If you disagree with the solution of that equation that is put forth in the Etp Model post it.

If you can't do that you are completely, totally, absolutely wasting your time, or very bored with life in general.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 14 Nov 2016, 00:34:18

Plus, that EQUATION is a Second Law Statement; which is irrefutable according to the science of our time. Prove that the solution as applied by the Etp Model is incorrect, or get out your Tarot cards, and Ouija Board.

Getting to Olduvai Gorge will not be a problem for you. You are already half way there.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 14 Nov 2016, 06:37:51

Your ETP model equation is based on a set of assumptions, each written on an index card and used to build a very fragile house.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Nov 2016, 06:40:57

shortonoil wrote:Plus, that EQUATION is a Second Law Statement; which is irrefutable according to the science of our time. Prove that the solution as applied by the Etp Model is incorrect, or get out your Tarot cards, and Ouija Board.

Getting to Olduvai Gorge will not be a problem for you. You are already half way there.

So lets see your equation, your definition of terms and equalities, and the table of data the equation cranks out for each year so we can check your plots.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby shortonoil » Mon 14 Nov 2016, 09:27:03

"So lets see your equation, your definition of terms and equalities, and the table of data the equation cranks out for each year so we can check your plots."

The equation can be found in any engineering thermodynamics text book. We used the equation that is on page 226 of Moran and Shapiro, "Fundamentals of Engineering Thermodynamics"; ISBN 0-471-89576-8. It is the "Entropy rate balance equation for control volumes".

All data, and methodologies used to solve that equation can be found in the 67 page report "Depletion: A determination for the world's petroleum reserve".

A copy of that equation can be found on page 7 of the first 10 pages of the report that are given as a preview. It is in blue, and at the top of the page. That is at this location:

http://www.thehillsgroup.org/petrohg10.pdf

A full definition of terms as copied from Moran and Sharpiro is also given there.

The Etp Model is the solution of that equation as applied to petroleum depletion. As the "Entropy rate balance equation for control volumes" is a Second Law statement, and therefore irrefutable (as you are not Steven Hawkings) either the solution is correct, or it is not. As it has been reviewed by thousands of highly qualified persons from around the world for almost 4 years it is extremely doubtful that it is in error.

We await your esoteric, highly qualified, and illuminating evaluation.

Now! What is your next question "Snow Flake"?
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Nov 2016, 09:49:29

shortonoil wrote:"So lets see your equation, your definition of terms and equalities, and the table of data the equation cranks out for each year so we can check your plots."

The equation can be found in any engineering thermodynamics text book. We used the equation that is on page 226 of Moran and Shapiro, "Fundamentals of Engineering Thermodynamics"; ISBN 0-471-89576-8. It is the "Entropy rate balance equation for control volumes".

All data, and methodologies used to solve that equation can be found in the 67 page report "Depletion: A determination for the world's petroleum reserve".

A copy of that equation can be found on page 7 of the first 10 pages of the report that are given as a preview. It is in blue, and at the top of the page. That is at this location:

http://www.thehillsgroup.org/petrohg10.pdf

A full definition of terms as copied from Moran and Sharpiro is also given there.

The Etp Model is the solution of that equation as applied to petroleum depletion. As the "Entropy rate balance equation for control volumes" is a Second Law statement, and therefore irrefutable (as you are not Steven Hawkings) either the solution is correct, or it is not. As it has been reviewed by thousands of highly qualified persons from around the world for almost 4 years it is extremely doubtful that it is in error.

We await your esoteric, highly qualified, and illuminating evaluation.

Now! What is your next question "Snow Flake"?

Don't tell me it is great and somewhere else. Print it out so everybody here can see it and see that you understand it and know how to fill in the blanks and generate data with it.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby Pops » Mon 14 Nov 2016, 10:14:35

lol
for those of you still confused by this amazing discovery let me help explain:
dollars have constant value, it's the oil that costs more,
so much more that it will soon be so expensive we'll stop using it and go back to donkeys


here's the picture:
Image

Some other things about to become valueless because they are too expensive to produce:
-- bread, 50¢ in 1950, $2 now
--old pickups, my '69 cost $2k new but I sold it for $6k
--houses, my house sold for $2.5K in 1929, I'll list it for $250k
--You: when I was a kid minimum wage was $2.35, now $7.75


In depth explanation of ERP:
no such thing as dollar deflation


DO NOT be fooled by this chart!

Image
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 12:53:41

Observerbrb wrote:US will probably enter in recession next year. I don't see how Oil demand could rise and inventories rebalance if it finally happens.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... m-gathers/


Yet one more gloom and doom forecast thrown onto the ash heap of history by the passage of a brief time interval.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:04:07

Yet regardless of any premature predictions, the basis for economic vitality keeps getting worse as non renewable resources keep dwindling and the disequilibrium between renewable resources and population keeps getting worse. But the worse of all is a huge and still growing human population is endangering the habitability of this planet precisely by the myriad of ways this modern worldwide industrial civilization impacts it. So maybe we should be rooting for the accuracy of the Etp and an end to economic vitality
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 19:17:41

onlooker wrote:Yet regardless of any premature predictions, the basis for economic vitality keeps getting worse as non renewable resources keep dwindling and the disequilibrium between renewable resources and population keeps getting worse. But the worse of all is a huge and still growing human population is endangering the habitability of this planet precisely by the myriad of ways this modern worldwide industrial civilization impacts it. So maybe we should be rooting for the accuracy of the Etp and an end to economic vitality
Just what non renewable resource do you think we are running out of this year?
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby Cog » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 20:00:31

Or in 2018?
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby GHung » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 21:09:19

vtsnowedin wrote:
onlooker wrote:Yet regardless of any premature predictions, the basis for economic vitality keeps getting worse as non renewable resources keep dwindling and the disequilibrium between renewable resources and population keeps getting worse. But the worse of all is a huge and still growing human population is endangering the habitability of this planet precisely by the myriad of ways this modern worldwide industrial civilization impacts it. So maybe we should be rooting for the accuracy of the Etp and an end to economic vitality
Just what non renewable resource do you think we are running out of this year?


I didn't see onlooker say we are "running out" of anything. Why can't we keep these discussions honest? Just askin'....
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 02:19:21

GHung wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
onlooker wrote:Yet regardless of any premature predictions, the basis for economic vitality keeps getting worse as non renewable resources keep dwindling and the disequilibrium between renewable resources and population keeps getting worse. But the worse of all is a huge and still growing human population is endangering the habitability of this planet precisely by the myriad of ways this modern worldwide industrial civilization impacts it. So maybe we should be rooting for the accuracy of the Etp and an end to economic vitality
Just what non renewable resource do you think we are running out of this year?


I didn't see onlooker say we are "running out" of anything. Why can't we keep these discussions honest? Just askin'....

Onlooker wrote.
the basis for economic vitality keeps getting worse as non renewable resources keep dwindling and the disequilibrium between renewable resources and population keeps getting worse.

A "disequilibrium" is just a ten dollar word for a shortage or running out of a resource.
Buy the way just who on this board is more honest in their discussions then I am? :x
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:20:33

The economy is much like the weather in the sense that it is a complex system. Patterns only emerge over larger time-cycles. For instance, we've seen one or two stock market "corrections" since the economy started to pull itself out of recession. How were those corrections interpreted in these hallowed halls? The tendency is to latch onto short-term noise and perceive that to be "the big one".

ETP's attempt to reduce the economy to the thermodynamics of oil is wildly over-simplistic. It doesn't even come close to factoring in all of the resource inputs nor the various disruptive factors related purely to the OTHER vagaries of human behavior (mania/panics, fiscal policy, trade imbalances, geopolitics, wars and embargoes...)

The "noise" in the system will not clear unless resource constraints become acute and undeniable. This has not happened yet. We're still at the last stages of drawdown.

The attempt to connect the dots between the debt situation and resources is tenuous at best. Debt has a way of flying out of control. It always has and always will, as we are a species that favors the present over the future. How many of us ran up our credit card debt immediately after college? Well, that sort of irresponsibility can and does operate at larger scales. These debt problems are in most cases a matter of mismanagement rather than some fatalistic trap that we're forced to step into.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Economics vs. ETP

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:42:01

Asg, you are not paying attention.
ETP's attempt to reduce the economy to the thermodynamics of oil is wildly over-simplistic
.-----This an attempt to apply a sound law "Liebig's law of the minimum, often simply called Liebig's law or the law of the minimum, is a principle developed in agricultural science by Carl Sprengel (1828) and later popularized by Justus von Liebig. It states that growth is dictated not by total resources available, but by the scarcest resource (limiting factor). The law has also been applied to biological populations and ecosystem models for factors such as sunlight or mineral nutrients." In this case the critical issues now apparent with Oil and how essential it is to the Economy
Second,
The attempt to connect the dots between the debt situation and resources is tenuous at best
It is totally logical to avail of the representation of wealth/resources ie.money/debt when those wealth/resources become scarce
It has been done in the past by other societies
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