Hawkcreek wrote:Rock,
Its only money, and life is short. Buy the fancy PU.
litesong wrote:Hawkcreek wrote:Rock,
Its only money, and life is short. Buy the fancy PU.
We got two Elantras, one for under $13,000. Each has gotten 45mpg & 200,000 miles look like their travel distances.... but few trips to repair shops. I'll spend tens of thousands of dollars less than you, have more fun, & won't worry about philosophy or children to which you didn't teach the value of money.
Hawkcreek wrote:litesong wrote:Hawkcreek wrote:Rock,
Its only money, and life is short. Buy the fancy PU.
We got two Elantras, one for under $13,000. Each has gotten 45mpg & 200,000 miles look like their travel distances.... but few trips to repair shops. I'll spend tens of thousands of dollars less than you, have more fun, & won't worry about philosophy or children to which you didn't teach the value of money.
I bet you have never even got arrested, after getting drunk and getting in a fight.
litesong wrote:
I love my Elantra as I drive through our beautiful country. For weeks I've toured around, to watch tens of thousands of migrating snow & Canada geese in vast V-formations, drop from the sky & sweep to wonderful landings in wildlife regions with lovely, large ridge lines in the background. You like to drive & drink & fight with the police when they arrest you. The only background you see is the brick prison walls through gray bars. Its wonderful you teach your children such distinguished actions.
vision-master wrote:Honda's?![]()
Like that toad the Honda FIT with terrible gas mileage for a compact and slow as hell. Are they still running a 4 speed auto. lol![]()
Hate to break it to ya but, Honda's are overpriced and if they are so great, where's the 100,000 mile power-train warranty?
vision-master wrote:Hondas do not need 100K-mile warranties because it is known that Hondas are well built.
Chryslers need 100K-mile warranties or no one will buy them because they have a poor reliability record.
Go pick on Toyotas or something, vision-muffler.
Boring cheap cars, no thanks.
Too bad those Jap's can't build one of these.
The Aluminum Ford F150 is Outselling the Steel Trucks by a Massive Margin
The people who insisted that the aluminum body introduced for the 2015 model year Ford F150 would cause a drop in sales were very wrong, as over the course of the past three years, sales numbers have skyrocketed as the aluminum trucks outsell the previous steel truck by a gigantic margin.
Back in 2014, Ford Motor Company introduced the 2015 F150. It had a new look, more power and – most significantly – body panels comprised from aluminum rather than steel. Many individuals in the truck community insisted that there was no way that an aluminum pickup would last, so no one would buy it. These people made lots of jokes about soda cans and some went so far as to insist that over time, sales numbers would dwindle due to the lightweight, aluminum body.
The aluminum-bodied F150 went on sale late 2014, so they have been readily available around the US and Canada for better than three years. Guess what? Not only have sales numbers not dwindled, but they are booming, with the current generation of the F150 outselling the 2014 model year by a bigger margin each year.
Annual F150 Sales Numbers
I have to start by pointing out the fact that Ford Motor Company does not break out F150 sales from the rest of the F-Series lineup. Their monthly and annual sales numbers are only available combined, but in speaking with some industry insiders with access to other numbers, we can figure out roughly how many half-ton trucks Ford sells each year.
By looking at production numbers rather than sales numbers for 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017, I found that production at the F-150 plants accounted for about 66% of total production while the plants that build the Super Duty accounted for the other 33% in 2014, 2015 and 2017. In 2016, there was a slightly larger ratio of half-ton to Super Duty, accounting of a production mix of 70% F150, 30% Super Duty.
By using those production ratios and applying them to annual sales, we can get a ballpark figure of F-150 sales for each of those four years. Mind you, this isn’t a perfect method of figuring out exact sales numbers, as the sales numbers at the beginning and end of each calendar year include models from the year before or year after, but I have been assured by an insider that this is an accurate means of coming to a ballpark figure for the F150.
Below is a table showing the calendar year, the F-Series sales total for that year, the half-ton-to-Super Duty mix for that year and the calculated rough number of F150 sales.
2014 - 743,851 – 66% - 490,942
2015 – 780354 – 66% - 515,034
2016 – 820,799 – 70% - 574,559
2017 – 896,764 – 66% - 591,864
Again, these are calculated figures and there could be slight variances in the actual ratio from month to month, but these are accurate ballpark sales numbers for the F-150. As you can see, the numbers have increased by more than a hundred thousand units annually since 2014, when most of the trucks sold were steel, to 2017, when all of the trucks sold are aluminum.
Now, I want to be clear that I am not saying that the sales of the F150 have grown strictly because of the move to an aluminum body. There are plenty of other factors that have played a role in the growth of F-Series sales over the past three years, but the bottom line here is that the lightweight aluminum body has most certainly not hurt F150 sales. Of course, it should also be noted that the aluminum-bodied Ford F150 and the newer aluminum Super Duty pickups are also comfortably outselling the steel-bodied pickups from General Motors and Ram, so there really hasn’t been any downside to Ford’s move to aluminum.
A special thanks to industry insiders who helped with the numbers here!
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
efarmer wrote:Honda makes good products, my experience is that for an aging vehicle they are less rebuildable
and if so at much higher expense than Toyota Products, especially with transmissions and engines.
The two brands are about equal if you buy new and move on in a 5 to 7 year window. If you are
a skinflint, like me, the Yota emerges as a long distance runner. I think the Ford aluminum F-150
is a bridge too far for pickup trucks are beasts of burden,and cheap steel body parts keep the beast
servicable versus the hard issue of body work on aluminum that drives body module replacement
as about the only sensible route for a wreck repair.
dissident wrote:The lawyer hive at the EPA cannot tolerate consumer diesels.
KaiserJeep wrote:Every pound saved in the vehicle weight has a tremendous impact in fuel savings over a quarter million miles or so. Plus a lighter vehicle is safer because it handles better, accelerates faster, and brakes in a shorter distance than the heavier steel vehicle. This particular truck has a body engineered to be stronger and stiffer than the steel design it replaced. Finally, there is the matter of rust resistance. I have lived in California for 35 years, but every time I venture into the salt belt, I am shocked at how much corrosion damages vehicles.
Ford’s All-Aluminum-Body F-150 Pickup Truck
The move to aluminum has had profound implications—the Ford F-150 is the best-selling vehicle in the United States. And today, Ford continues to innovate with the help of aluminum, advancing the pickup truck segment by becoming one of the first manufacturers to mass produce an all-electric pickup truck— the F-150 Lightning. Greater aluminum use enables Ford’s trucks to go farther on a gallon of gasoline (or a single charge) without compromising efficiency, value or performance.
A vehicle that so decisively defines our nation has entered the age of environmental consciousness. Electric pickup trucks signal the arrival of an electric vehicle revolution. This shift in the vehicle ecosystem pairs sustainability benefits with increased vehicle performance, allowing consumers to do more while helping protect the environment for generations to come. From four wheels and a wooden stake bed to a supercomputer on wheels, the pickup truck has come a long way in the past 100 years. And the road ahead is paved with aluminum.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Aluminum in Cars: What Aluminum Alloys are Common in Aluminum Car Bodies?
You might ask yourself, “What makes aluminum in cars so commonplace?” or “What is it about aluminum that makes it such a great material for car bodies?” without realizing that aluminum has been used in auto manufacturing since the beginning of cars. As early as 1889 aluminum was produced in quantity and cast, rolled, and formed in cars.
Auto manufactures seized the opportunity to work with an easier-to-form material than steel. At the time, only purer forms of aluminum existed, which are characteristically softer and possess great formability and excellent corrosion resistance that holds up over time. These factors led car makers to sand cast and form extensive body panels that were then welded and polished by hand.
By the mid-20th century, some of the most esteemed auto manufacturers were applying aluminum in cars. This includes Bugatti, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche.
Why Choose Aluminum in Cars?
Cars are complex machines consisting of roughly 30,000 parts. Car bodies, or the skeleton of the vehicle, are the most expensive and critical to vehicle manufacturing.
They include the outer panels which provide shape to the vehicle, and the inner panels which act as reinforcement. The panels are welded together to pillars and railing. Car bodies then include front and rear doors, engine beams, wheel arches, bumpers, hoods, passenger compartments, front, roof, and floor paneling.
Structural soundness is the most important requirement for car bodies. However, car bodies must also be lightweight, affordable to produce, resistant to rust, and have the attractive qualities consumers seek, like excellent surface finishing characteristics.
Aluminum satisfies the range of these requirements for a few reasons:
Versatility
Naturally, aluminum is an exceptionally versatile material. Aluminum’s formability and corrosion resistance make it easy to work with and shape.
It’s also available in various formats, like aluminum sheet, aluminum coil, aluminum plate, aluminum tube, aluminum pipe, aluminum channel, aluminum beam, aluminum bar, and aluminum angle.
Versatility allows for aluminum to be a choice material for a range of auto applications that might require different characteristics, be it size and shape, yield strength, finishing character, or corrosion resistance.
Ease of Workability
Performance quality and versatility can be enhanced through various fabrication processes, such as bake hardening, work and precipitation hardening, drawing, annealing, casting, molding, and extrusion. Improved welding technologies continue to make joining aluminum easier to perform with safer outcomes.
Lightweight and Durable
Aluminum has a high strength-to-weight ratio, meaning it is light and durable. Automotive trends in aluminum have focused on weight reduction in vehicles, a main objective in the industry in order to meet stricter emissions targets.
Research conducted by Drive Aluminum confirms that aluminum in cars reduces vehicle weight and increases fuel economy and range in electric vehicles (EV). Since consumer demand and environmental incentives are leading to increased production of EV, we can expect that aluminum in car bodies will continue to rise as a way to offset the weight of batteries and lower emissions.
Alloying Capability
That aluminum can be alloyed with a range of elements to amplify qualities like strength, electrical conductivity, and corrosion resistance increases its use in auto manufacturing.
Aluminum is separated into alloy series which are determined by their main alloying elements. The 1xxx, 2xxx, 3xxx, 4xxx, 5xxx, 6xxx, and 7xxx aluminum alloy series all include alloys that are put to use in car bodies.
List of Aluminum Grades in Car Bodies
1100
The 1xxx series of aluminum is the most pure aluminum available. At 99% pure, 1100 aluminum sheet is extremely malleable. It also demonstrates excellent corrosion resistance. This was one of the first alloys used in vehicles and continues to be used today, primarily in heat insulators.
2024
The 2xxx series of aluminum is alloyed with copper. 2024 is often used in the manufacturing of pistons, break components, rotors, cylinders, wheels and gears as it shows high strength and excellent fatigue resistance.
3003, 3004, 3105
The 3xxx manganese series of aluminum has great formability. You’re most likely to see 3003, 3004 and 3105.
3003 shows high strength, good formability, workability, and drawing capabilities. It is often utilized for automotive piping, paneling, as well as power castings for hybrids and EV.
3004 shares many of the characteristics of 3003, and can be additionally purposed for cowl grille panels and radiators.
3105 has excellent corrosion resistance, formability, and welding characteristics. It shows up in auto body sheet, for use in fenders, doors, and floor paneling.
4032
The 4xxx series of aluminum is alloyed with silicon. 4032 will be used for pistons, compressor scrolls, and engine components as it demonstrates excellent weldability and abrasion resistance.
5005, 5052, 5083, 5182, 5251
5xxx series is one of the most popular for aluminum car bodies. Its main alloying element is magnesium, known to increase strength.
5005 shows up in body paneling, fuel tanks, steering plates, and piping.
5052 is considered one of the most serviceable alloys and appears in a multitude of auto components as a result. You’ll see it in fuel tanks, truck trailers, suspension plates, display paneling, bracketry, disk and drum breaks, and many other non-critical auto parts.
5083 is excellent for complex automotive components like engine bases and body paneling.
5182 shows up as a structural mainstay for car bodies. Everything from structural bracketry, to doors, hoods, and front wing end plates.
5251 can be seen in auto paneling.
6016, 6022, 6061, 6082, 6181
The 6xxx aluminum series is alloyed with magnesium and silicon, they boast some of the best extrusion and casting capabilities, and demonstrate ideal surface finishing character.
6016 and 6022 are purposed in auto body covering, doors, trunks, roofs, fenders and outer plates where dent resistance is key.
6061 showcases outstanding surface finishing characteristics, corrosion resistance, and high strength. It shows up in cross members, brakes, wheels propeller shafts, truck and bus bodies, air bags, and receiver tanks.
6082 has some of the best impact resistance. Consequently, it’s used for load bearing framework.
6181 holds up as exterior body paneling.
7003, 7046
The 7xxx is the most powerful and highest strength alloy class, alloyed with zinc and magnesium.
7003 is an extrusion alloy used primarily for welded shapes in the making of impact beams, seat sliders, bumper reinforcement, motorbike frames, and rims.
7046 has hollow extrusion capabilities and good welding character. It shows up in similar applications to 7003.
The Future of Aluminum in Cars
We have every reason to believe that what auto manufacturers picked up on in the late 1800’s is still true today: aluminum is an outstanding choice for vehicles! Since it was first introduced, alloys and improved fabrication techniques have only increased the use of aluminum in cars. Coupled with global concern about sustainability and environmental impact, aluminum is expected to achieve a considerable range and depth of impact in the automotive industry.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
WHY THE NEW F-150 KEPT THE ALUMINUM BODYIf It Ain’t Broke, Don’t Fix It
When Ford first announced that the F-150 would feature an aluminum body back in 2014, the automaker was met with swaths of criticisms. Concerns arose related to toughness of aluminum, the cost of panel repairs, and the overall increase in MSRP associated with the more expensive metal. Ford has been able to dismiss many of these critiques at this point, but that didn’t leave some buyers convinced the metallurgy would shift for the new model. Nevertheless, the new F-150 stays the course.
“It’s a recipe that’s worked for us,” said F-150 Chief Engineer Craig Schmatz when asked why Ford chose to stick with an aluminum body over a mixed-material solution. “We made the big bet in 2015… and the body shops and processes are all set up to do that. So for us to shift to mixed metals we would have to make the very conscious decision that may not have been able to be incorporated into our facilities. For us it just made sense to stay the course.”
The reason then to continue with the aluminum alloy construction boils down to cost. The automaker invested heavily in their facilities when steel was ditched back in 2014, as did their dealerships and independent body shops. A report from Automotive News stated that while Ford was busy retooling their production facilities, repair shops were asked to spend up to $100,000 for the equipment and training needed to work on the new design. Moving away from the use of aluminum now would require another round of investment from the company and their service partners alike. With the automaker already dumping a significant amount of money towards their electrification efforts, this likely seemed like an unwise business decision.
That said, costs were one of the main reasons analysts and fans thought that Ford may step away from aluminum for the 2021 F-150. The price of aluminum has continued to rise in recent years, and the sky-high gas prices predicated a few years ago haven’t come. This is best highlighted by the mere existence of the TRX or anything Hellcat related. To Ford’s credit however, other automakers are now beginning to incorporate more of the lightweight alloy into their own truck construction. I guess if you can’t beat them, join them a tiny bit.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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