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THE Country of Turkey Thread (merged)

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 15 Jul 2016, 20:01:44

My bet is it won't fail. Let's see. It's been about 4 hours, it is a few hours until dawn.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby GHung » Fri 15 Jul 2016, 20:13:18

.... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.....

....or something like that. Could go either way.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 15 Jul 2016, 21:40:06

Erdogan says the coup plotters were taking their orders from an Erdogan opposition cleric in Pennsylvania:
Turkey coup: Pennsylvania cleric is Erdogan foe

Turkish government lawyer: US cleric had 'unlawful conduct'
SCRANTON — As government officials and military forces clash in the streets of Ankara and elsewhere in Turkey, attention has turned to a reclusive Muslim cleric in Pennsylvania whom Turkey's president has long accused of orchestrating coup attempts.

"(S)uspicion has fallen on Fethullah Gulen, a US..-based Turkish religious scholar and political enemy of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the strongman Turkish president," writes Steve LeVine at qz.com.

"Until now, Erdogan had appeared to have crushed the 75-year-old Gulen, who has deep roots in the Turkish political, military, judicial, and media establishments, as well as in Muslim countries around the world.

But if, as Erdogan himself has alleged, Gulen or his followers are involved in the putsch, then it demonstrates that he remains a force to contend with, though he has lived for years in seclusion in Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania."


The Turkish uprising comes just two weeks after a lawyer representing the Turkish government vowed to continue exposing what he calls the "unlawful conduct" of Gulen. Robert Amsterdam released a statement on June 30, one day after a federal judge in Scranton dismissed his lawsuit against Gulen. ...

The suit contended Gulen ordered sympathetic police, prosecutors and judges in Turkey to target members of a rival spiritual movement critical of his teachings. The legal action was filed as part of a crackdown on the Turkish cleric and his followers by Erdogan. ...

U.S. District Judge Robert Mariani threw out the suit, ruling the claims did not belong in U.S. courts.
Gulen's attorneys had called the legal action an attempt by Erdogan to silence Gulen, who has criticized the Turkish leader.

Gulen has lived in self-imposed exile in the United States since 1999, according to Time magazine. "Despite his distance, he remains one of the most influential people in Turkey," the magazine writes online. "From afar, he has run a powerful movement calling for a secular and democratic government."

Erdogan has launched a broad campaign against Gulen's movement in Turkey and abroad. The Erdogan regime has carried out a purge of civil servants suspected of ties to the movement, seized businesses and closed some media organizations. Gulen has been charged criminally with plotting to overthrow the government, and was placed on trial in absentia in Turkey earlier this year.
http://www.ydr.com/story/news/2016/07/15/turkey-coup-pennsylvania-cleric-erdogan-foe/87158206/


The group appears to be pro democratic and in favor of secular moderate government, but I don't know enough to conclude that. But anyway, they deny they had any involvement in this:
Gulen's nonprofit, the Alliance for Shared Values, denies any involvement and has condemned "any military intervention in domestic politics of Turkey."
In a 2014 profile, The Times described Gulen's faith and politics, which include a blend of Islamic piety and Sufi mysticism as well as support for free markets, democracy and religious tolerance.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-turkey-unrest-turkey-s-coup-is-broadcasting-live-on-1468628296-htmlstory.html

Turkey’s Leaders Say Coup Attempt Foiled as Clashes Rock Nation
Turkey’s leaders said they have largely quelled an attempted military coup, after army officers claimed to have seized power in the country. Clashes persisted in major cities as tanks blockaded roads, soldiers fought with police and warplanes bombed the parliament in Ankara. ...

Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said the situation was largely under the control, and top military leaders who weren’t involved in the uprising condemned it. Turkey’s NATO allies declared their support for the elected government. ...

But clashes persisted around military headquarters in Ankara, while massive explosions continued to rock the capital -- where the legislature was hit by at least two airstrikes -- and Istanbul.
“The coup attempt in Turkey seems backed by only a faction in the Turkish military and is unlikely to succeed,” said Jorge Benitez, a senior fellow at the Brent Scowcroft Center on International Security in Washington. “The rest of the Turkish military, plus the intelligence services will keep Erdogan in power.”

The U.S. backed Erdogan and his government. The Obama administration has “absolute support” for the elected government of Turkey, its NATO ally, Secretary of State John Kerry said in an e-mailed statement.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-15/turkish-premier-says-elements-of-army-attempt-to-seize-power

The overall general analysis is that the coup was initiated by junior officers in the military, without top brass. They did it as a protest against Erdogan's increasing islamicisation of Turkey (versus secular).

My opinion -- European and US governments have screwed up, long term. They should have stepped in about Erdogan YEARS ago. LONG TERM.. a more and more fundy muslim Turkey would be bad for Europe.
And Erdogan overall, is a loose cannon in NATO.

And he's been helping ISIS all this time, because he wants to defeat Assad. But then that's screwed up this whole effort in the West to defeat ISIS, all along.
It's some real byzantine stuff (pun intended) going on, over there, in the middle east and syria conflict and the power bloc struggle between shia Iran and then Assad and the sunni nations.

Overall -- what Erdogan is doing, dragging Turkey more and more fundamentalist islam and away from western secularism, isn't good for Europe.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 15 Jul 2016, 23:43:55

This was a couple weeks ago:



The Latest: Pence with Trump on blocking some immigration
Indiana Gov. Mike Pence says he supports Donald Trump's call to "temporarily suspend immigration from countries where terrorists' influence and impact represents a threat to the United States."
http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2016-07-15/the-latest-trump-said-to-offer-ind-governor-spot-on-ticket


I'm not sure anymore, seems like that would maybe be a "good idea," folks. :|
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby M_B_S » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 02:02:52

The question is:

What is better for US or EUROPE ?


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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 06:32:23

I lost my bet, coup fail. Bummer.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby dissident » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:08:19

This "coup" was more than likely engineered by Erdo-turd's regime to enable a further consolidation of his dictatorship. It is just too convenient for him. He even gets to look like a hero of the people.

Hoodwinking a few soldiers is easily done with a few regime plants who pose as dissidents. There can even be serious fighting and a few dozen victims. But the main thing is that there is zero chance for the rebels to succeed.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-1 ... s-hundreds

Hundreds of soldiers but thousands of judges? Really now.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:15:32

Yeah, it's a gift to the regieme. He will consolidate power and it will give him cover for further purges. Not good.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby M_B_S » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 10:43:19

@ Dissident

=> SCU

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1933 "Reichstagsbrand"
:idea:

M_B_S

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/16/turkey-r ... tempt.html
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby radon1 » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 16:50:32

Cog wrote:I support this coup.


Of course you do. People are shooting other people using rifles. Sounds like Cog's paradise.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 16:59:56

dissident wrote:This "coup" was more than likely engineered by Erdo-turd's regime to enable a further consolidation of his dictatorship. It is just too convenient for him. He even gets to look like a hero of the people.

Hoodwinking a few soldiers is easily done with a few regime plants who pose as dissidents. There can even be serious fighting and a few dozen victims. But the main thing is that there is zero chance for the rebels to succeed. ...

Hundreds of soldiers but thousands of judges? Really now.


The Counter-Coup Begins: Erdogan Purges 2,745 Judges, Prosecutors; Arrests Hundreds


If that's true, it would be like when Hitler bombed his own Reichstag. False flag kind of thing, in this case as you state Dissident it would be a ruse to then do a total crackdown and purge of the judiciary (wtf judges weren't in the coup), and military officers.

So what would Erdogan be purging, exactly? Apparently, pro democracy / pro secular / pro western / moderate muslims. And then Erdogan would put hardline fundy muslims in their place, that will be loyal to him.

But it's like the House of Saud and their pact with the wahhabis, all over again. Erdogan is promoting fundamentalist Islam, in Turkey.

The mainstream news analysis during the coup, was that if Erdogan emerged from it then he would be even MORE authoritarian and then move to take total power and control in Turkey.

Which is why some think the whole thing was staged by Erdogan.

I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist, but I have to wonder a bit about this one. Otherwise, that coup made no sense. Most officers were totally shocked by it, the thing just came out of nowhere (this was on CNN), and also there were no generals at all involved. So how did the thing happen? Makes no sense. A *small* coup like that, is really a mutiny. That thing wasn't large enough to be a *serious* coup. And they didn't do the things that real coups do.

Erdogan is blaming the pro democracy pro moderate islam cleric Fethullah Gulen, a political asylum refugee since 1999, in Pennsylvania; Erdogan wants the US to extradite him to Turkey, Erdogan saying Gulen is behind the coup. Whereas Gulen is suggesting this may have all been staged by ERDOGAN.

Turkey Coup: US would consider extraditing Fethullah Gulen after Erdogan points finger at cleric

Gulen has harshly condemned the attempted coup attempt by military officers that resulted in a night of explosions, air battles and gunfire that left dozens dead. But Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's government is blaming the chaos on the cleric, who lives in exile in Pennsylvania and promotes a philosophy that blends a mystical form of Islam with staunch advocacy of democracy, education, science and interfaith dialogue. ...

“We haven't received any request with respect to Mr. Gulen,” Kerry told reporters. “We fully anticipate that there will be questions raised about Mr. Gulen. And obviously we would invite the government of Turkey, as we always do, to present us with any legitimate evidence that withstands scrutiny. And the United States will accept that and look at it and make judgments about it appropriately.” ...

Gulen is understood to maintain significant support among some members of the military and mid-level bureaucrats. His movement called Hizmet includes think tanks, schools and various media enterprises. Gulen and Erdogan only became estranged in recent years.

In a statement, Gulen said he condemned, “in the strongest terms, the attempted military coup in Turkey.”

“Government should be won through a process of free and fair elections, not force,” he said.

Gulen sharply rejected any responsibility: “As someone who suffered under multiple military coups during the past five decades, it is especially insulting to be accused of having any link to such an attempt. I categorically deny such accusations.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-coup-fethullah-gulen-erdogan-extradition-us-barack-obama-john-kerry-return-cleric-blamed-a7140786.html


Fethullah Gülen: Turkey coup may have been 'staged' by Erdoğan regime

Cleric speaks to reporters including Guardian at Pennsylvania compound
Kerry: Turkey should present ‘evidence’ to back any extradition request
Pentagon loses airspace access crucial in airstrikes against Isis targets
Opinion: Turkey was already undergoing a coup – by Erdoğan


In a rare and brief interview on Saturday with a small group of journalists at his residence in Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania, Gülen rejected all accusations that he was behind the coup attempt.

“I don’t believe that the world believes the accusations made by President Erdoğan,” Gülen said. “There is a possibility that it could be a staged coup and it could be meant for further accusations [against the Gülenists].”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/fethullah-gulen-turkey-coup-erdogan


I don't know enough about this Gullen fellow to conclude anything, but from what I can tell so far, from these articles, he seems he seems to be promoting moderate islam that's tolerant and pro democracy and anti violence:

Fethullah Gülen is a Turkish writer, former Islamic preacher and the leader of the Gülen’s movement, one of the largest Islamic movements in Turkey. As the author of more than 60 books, Fethullah Gülen advocates tolerance, acceptance of others, and dialogue for peace. He sees the solution to many of the world’s problems in a return to religious faith, and advocates that in true Islam, terrorism is murder and is strictly forbidden. Gülen’s followers have formed more than 500 educational institutions in over 90 countries around the world (on Better World Heroes).

He says: “Today, people are talking about many things: the danger of war and frequent clashes, water and air pollution, hunger, the increasing erosion of moral values, and so on. As a result, many other concerns have come to the fore: peace, contentment, ecology, justice, tolerance, and dialogue.
http://word.world-citizenship.org/wp-archive/2627


Some more info from the above link:

The Turkish Islamist movement of Fethullah Gulen is one of the most interesting examples of liberal Islamist thinking in the Middle East. Gulen and his followers have tried to produce a religious-political movement favoring modernism, Turkish nationalism, tolerance, and democracy without sacrificing religious precepts. The structure and philosophy of this movement and its leader have been manifested in many groups and educational institutions.

Part of the Turkish secularist elite views Gulen as a progressive development, though others see him as a threat in moderate garb


Just to note, regarding this byzantine Turkish stuff I'm posting about things I don't really know about ( :lol: ).. so who is this Gullen fellow, is he a moderate or is he something between the moderates and the fundamentalists? And then, if I understand everything correctly, the other factor is that Erdogan is putting definite islamic fundamentalists more in charge.

Some fundamentalist Turks think women shouldn't laugh in public:

Turkish official: Women shouldn't laugh in public

their country's deputy leader said in a speech assailing "moral corruption" that women should not laugh in public and not talk on their mobile phones so much.

Deputy Prime Minister Bülent Arınç took aim at contemporary life in Turkey, arguing for more chastity, humility and reading of the Quran and less consumerism, oil consumption and sex in the media, the Hurriyet Daily News reported.

Social media lit up as news of the speech spread, with hundreds of Turkish women posting photos of themselves and friends laughing in public places. Popular hashtags included #kahkaha (laugh) and #direnkahkaha (resist, laugh).
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/29/turkey-women-laugh/13326925/


By the way -- Democrats have fundy muslims in their coalition, but what do Democrat feminist women think of that?

Talk about loss of womens' equality and rights, if they can't even LAUGH in public. 8O

And then of course, it is far worse than that, in the more fundamentalist muslim nations. They can't drive, have to wear burkas in some places, and they can't do anything legal or own property or sign anything, without a male guardian.

This is an issue that matters a bit, for Europe and the US and western secular values, as the West gets more muslims in it -- are they gonna be modern and secular, or is fundy islam gonna roll everything back to 570 AD?

And then with Turkey -- the more fundy muslim that gets, then THAT is what is right on Europe and Russia's border. And, Turkey is headed to be in the EU, eventually.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 18:23:34

radon1 wrote:
Cog wrote:I support this coup.


Of course you do. People are shooting other people using rifles. Sounds like Cog's paradise.


Turkey's an odd kind of situation, and always has been. It's east meets west.

Attaturk is the one that put the military in charge of ensuring the place stays secular and more looking towards the west. So this is more complicated than usual coup situations, like in a third world banana republic somewhere.

But on the other hand -- in the modern world and in a country with seventy million people then no, that kind of system really can't continue. Coups and civil wars.

Many in the West thought it was a good idea, when Erdogan began defanging the military and making the civilian government prominent. BUT what then started to happen, was that Erdogan has this alliance with rural fundamentalist muslims in the countryside in Turkey, and then he starts taking all civilian power to himself, and then he puts in fundamentalist muslims into government and changing the country's historic balance of leaning secular, to headed for leaning fundy muslim.

Erdogan has already been making the democracy in Turkey, a dictatorship -- possibly, a fundamentalist muslim dictatorship, eventually.

So there's the complexities of the situation.. no, coups aren't acceptable anymore in the 21st century.. but also, the European and US governments -- YEARS ago -- should have been telling Erdogan NO, they don't want him taking Turkey to a more fundamentalist muslim direction, AND no the West should not accept loss of democracy in Turkey and Erdogan making it a dictatorship.

It's actually only constitutional democracy, that can PREVENT minority arch conservative religious from taking all power and shutting everyone else out.

The central issue, where it all started, was with Erdogan turning away from constitutional democracy and making Turkey a dictatorship.

I think what Cog supports is not "coups" -- he's just not in favor of fundamentalist islam crowding everyone else out. By changing democracy to dictatorship, and taking away the rights of others.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 18:54:05

Did Erdogan STAGE the coup?

US-based Turkish cleric facing extradition over botched rebellion claims president orchestrated plot to justify a clampdown on civil rights

Exiled cleric Fethullah Gulen accused Recep Erdogan of staging the coup
The Pennsylvania-based preacher has condemned the attempted rebellion
Erdogan told supporters he is considering reintroducing the death penalty
He claimed Gulen was behind a 'parallel structure' to overthrow the state

Looking relaxed and smiling, giving an occasional thumbs up to his supporters in Istanbul, Erdogan said the coup attempt had been carried out by a minority in the army.

He said: 'The army is ours, not that of the parallel structure. I am chief commander.'
Earlier Erdogan urged the US to extradite Gulen claiming Turkey never turned down an extradition request from Washington for 'terrorists'. ...

Gulen is understood to maintain significant support among some members of the military and mid-level bureaucrats. His movement called Hizmet includes think tanks, schools and various media enterprises. Gulen and Erdogan only became estranged in recent years. ...

Gulen sharply rejected any responsibility: 'As someone who suffered under multiple military coups during the past five decades, it is especially insulting to be accused of having any link to such an attempt. I categorically deny such accusations.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3693729/Did-Erdogan-STAGE-coup-based-Turkish-cleric-facing-extradition-botched-rebellion-claims-president-orchestrated-plot-justify-clampdown-civil-rights.html


Who is this mysterious man in Pennsylvania?

Supporters describe Gulen as a moderate Muslim cleric who champions interfaith dialogue. Promotional videos show him meeting with Pope John Paul II in the Vatican in the 1990s. He also met frequently with rabbis and Christian priests in Turkey.

Gulen has a loyal following -- known as Gulenists -- in Turkey, who all subscribe to the Hizmet movement.

Hizmet is a global initiative inspired by Gulen, who espouses what The New York Times has described as "a moderate, pro-Western brand of Sunni Islam that appeals to many well-educated and professional Turks." Nongovernmental organizations founded by the Hizmet movement, including hundreds of secular co-ed schools, free tutoring centers, hospitals and relief agencies, are credited with addressing many of Turkey's social problems.
The preacher and his movement also spawned a global network of schools and universities that operate in more than 100 countries.

In the United States, this academic empire includes Harmony Public Schools, the largest charter school network in Texas.

Within Turkey, volunteers in the Gulen movement also own TV stations, the largest-circulation newspaper, gold mines and at least one Turkish bank.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/16/middleeast/fethullah-gulen-profile/


Some connections between the Gulens and top Clinton aide Huma Abedin, also the Clinton Foundation:

In 2016, an email revealed during the Hillary Clinton email controversy indicated that Gulen follower Ghakan Ozkok had had direct access to Clinton’s staff member, Huma Abedin, and asked for a 15 minute meeting for Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu (an ally of Gulen who lost to Erdogan in 2014) with President Obama in 2009. The meeting with Obama took place in Istanbul, several days after the email. Gulen followers have reportedly donated between $500,000 and $1 million to the Clinton Foundation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement

(and that's the overall wiki on the group)

As was noted in something I linked upthread, and there weren't details, but some have criticized the Gulens for being "islamists in moderate clothing."

I'm not sure what to make of it all, and it would probably take a secular Turk to explain it.

What's behind the increasing fundamentalist muslim stuff in Turkey? Who's most at fault here, is it Erdogan or not? It's like Trump says, "friend or foe." :lol:

Would these Gulen movement muslims in Turkey be against ISIS, or not? Would they be saying too, that women shouldn't laugh in public?

Certainly, what secular people / Christians in Europe and the US would like, is just for muslims to just stop going crazy and get religious violence out of their religion, and just be friggin' normal and step up into the year 2016, and that's the bottom line about it.

Erdogan: the deeply divisive rule of Turkey's 'Sultan'

Istanbul (AFP) - Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who appears to have survived a bloody attempt to remove him from power, is the most divisive leader in the history of the modern Turkish republic.

Adored by supporters as a transformative figure who modernised Turkey, his foes paint him as an increasingly despotic "Sultan" who ruthlessly shuts down any criticism. ...

With a notoriously fiery temper, Erdogan is known to himself and followers as the "buyuk usta" -- the "big master" -- or simply "the Sultan".

The 61-year-old first came to power as prime minister in 2003, bringing stability after a history of coups and rocky coalitions and dragging the Muslim-majority country out of an economic quagmire.

He succeeded in clipping the wings of the military by purging elements that opposed him -- or so he claimed.

But ordinary Turks became suspicious of moves to "Islamicise" society by restricting alcohol sales, curbing the internet and even trying to ban mixed-sex dorms at state universities.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/erdogan-deeply-divisive-rule-turkeys-sultan-160235398.html?ref=gs
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 22:40:12

Sixstrings wrote:Certainly, what secular people / Christians in Europe and the US would like, is just for muslims to just stop going crazy and get religious violence out of their religion, and just be friggin' normal and step up into the year 2016, and that's the bottom line about it.


Muslims aren't crazy---its just that the Muslim religion is much different then what people in the west think a religion should be.

AND Muslims can't get violence out of their religion----the core teaching of Islam is that Muslims must wage war against the infidels until their lands are conquered for Allah.

Take Muhammad the truck guy who committed mass murder in Nice. As far as the Muslims in the Islamic State are concerned, he is a great warrior and a great hero who went on jihad and single-handedly killed 84 infidels. These Muslims believe that Muhammad is now being welcomed into Muslim heaven with celebrations and fanfare because he is such a great warrior, and Allah will prepare for a truly huge palace and stock it with all the earthly delights, including women for Muhammad to enjoy. As a famous martyr, these Muslims believe that eventually a shrine to him will built in Nice, most likely at the site near the beach where he was martyred fighting with the police. The shrine will be built after the Muslims take over, of course, to celebrate his great victory over the infidel, and pious Muslims will someday go on pilgrimages to shrine of Muhammad the truck driver in Nice.

Once you look at it from the Muslim point of view, it all makes sense.

Cheers!
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 17 Jul 2016, 01:31:17

Saw this linked on Drudgereport:

Does Erdogan want his own Islamic state?

Parliament Speaker Ismail Kahraman unexpectedly sparked controversy in Turkey when on April 25 he declared that Turkey’s new constitution should forgo mention of “secularism” and instead be a “religious constitution” referencing God. His words reignited Turkey’s always tense “secularism debate,” which has been amplified since 2002 when the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power.

Kahraman's remarks led to protests in a number of cities, a call by the main opposition leader for him to resign and allegations by secular pundits that the Speaker had shown the AKP’s “true face,” its “real intentions.”

Erdogan’s ambitions are more about power than doctrine. For power, he needs to sustain popular support, and for popular support, he needs to use religion, but only to a certain extent. While religious symbolism has broad appeal in Turkey, a Quran-thumping Islamic state does not. Various polls bear this out. The most recent survey of the political inclinations of Turkish society was conducted in 2013 by the Pew Research Center, which found that only 12% of all Turks support “making Sharia the official law in their country.” In contrast, 84% of Pakistanis and 74% of Egyptians supported the idea.

Erdogan likely has the support of this hardcore, Islamist minority of 12%, who probably do expect him to create their utopia. At the same time, he also has the support of a much larger block of “conservative” voters who are religious and like reference to religion, but who still prefer to live under secular law. This is why Erdogan would want to retain secularism in the Turkish constitution, albeit while not shying from venerating religion in the public square or perhaps even in the constitution.

A journalist with access to the AKP recently wrote in an insider report that there is a chance that the new constitution will preserve secularism — “laiklik,” from the French “laïcité” — but the preamble might make reference to “Allah and the religion of Islam,” along with some historical figures such as Rumi and Atatürk — in other words, something for everybody. Another rumor is that the preamble will make reference to “the Creator,” a possible inspiration from the US Declaration of Independence.

The more likely future for Turkey is not a Sharia-imposing Islamic state, but a more conservative state re-designed in the image of the AKP. Keep in mind that the latter-day ideology of the party is not simply “Islamism” after all, but “Erdoganism,” in which Islamism is indeed an important theme, but not the only theme. This would not put Turkey on the path to becoming another Iran or Saudi Arabia, as Turkey’s secularists fear, but it could lead in the direction of another Russia, where a similar ideology, “Putinism,” rules.

As the journalist Fareed Zakaria astutely observed, Putinism consists of five fundamentals: religion, nationalism, social conservatism, state capitalism and government media control. “Returning to the values of religion” — in particular Orthodox Christianity — is a powerful theme in Putin’s agenda, with a global vision of “protecting persecuted Christians all over the world.” Replace “Christian” with “Muslim,” and one has Turkey’s ruling ideology.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/04/turkey-does-erdogan-aim-islamic-state.html
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby M_B_S » Sun 17 Jul 2016, 02:36:02

Turkey under Erdogan followers

=> Sharia

Torture and murder in streets of Turkey

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/to ... ts-turkey/

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=> The modern Turkey is dead :idea:

=> Long live Erdogan = Allah :idea:
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 17 Jul 2016, 03:28:44

Tensions rising between Erdogan and the US government -- Erdogan has cut the power to Incirlik air base, and also halted US air force operations, and wants Gulen extradited from Pennsylvania to Istanbul:

Tensions rise between US, Turkey after failed coup as flights from key airbase are grounded

The U.S. and Turkey traded harsh words Saturday in the wake of a failed military coup against the Ankara government, while all air missions against the ISIS terror group out of Turkey were grounded.

Pentagon Press Secretary Peter Cook confirmed that power had been cut to the Incirlik air base in southern Turkey, near the Syria border. Cook also confirmed that Turkey had halted all military flights out of the base, including those by its own jets.

The Pentagon said it was trying to get permission to resume air operations from the base, while adjusting mission operations in the meantime.

Erdogan himself bluntly requested the extradition of Pennsylvania-based cleric Fethullah Gulen, whom Erdogan blamed for inspiring the coup, saying, "If we are strategic partners, then you should bring about our request."

Although he didn't outline any threat, Erdogan's emphasis on U.S.-Turkish counterterrorism cooperation raised the prospect of a prolonged closure of Incirlik if he didn't get his way.

Stung by the criticism, the State Department fired back. In a readout of the telephone call between Kerry and Cavosoglu, the department said Kerry told his fellow diplomat, "public insinuations or claims about any role by the United States in the failed coup attempt are utterly false and harmful to our bilateral relations."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/17/tensions-rise-between-us-turkey-after-failed-coup-as-flights-from-key-airbase-are-grounded.html


Wall Street Journal's phrasing, saying that Turkey would view the United States as an "enemy" if Obama won't hand over Fethullah Gulen:

U.S., Turkey on a Collision Course Over Ankara’s Demand for U.S.-Based Cleric
Erdogan accuses opponent in coup; U.S. decries ‘insinuations or claims’

Turkish government officials on Saturday said Turkey would view the U.S. as an enemy if the Obama administration doesn’t hand over Fethullah Gulen, a reclusive but influential Turkish cleric who has lived in self-imposed exile in Pennsylvania for nearly two decades.

“Any country that stands behind him is no friend of Turkey, is engaged in a serious war with Turkey,” Prime Minister Binali Yildirim said from his office in Ankara. Mr. Erdogan, in televised remarks from Istanbul, made a personal appeal to President Barack Obama.

“Today, after this coup attempt, I’m once again calling on you, I’m saying: Extradite this man in Pennsylvania to Turkey now,” he said.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/17/tensions-rise-between-us-turkey-after-failed-coup-as-flights-from-key-airbase-are-grounded.html


This report says that Gulen (who's been living in Pennsylvania the last seventeen years) has "millions of followers" in the Turkish bureaucracy, judiciary, police and media:

Fethullah Gulen: 'Second most powerful man in Turkey'
https://youtu.be/WpOQ3YfSOZU


Gulen's organization appeals to intellectual Turks, and many in the judiciary (hence the 3,000 judicial purges). I'm not really sure about this Gulen group, but according to the reporting it's a pro democracy, pro tolerance moderate muslim group.

Erdogan calls on Obama to deport Gulen or give him to Turkey
https://youtu.be/Uh1RTiFMe7c?t=7


Fethullah Gulen calls for international probe into Turkey coup allegations
https://youtu.be/acYkhO5RKAw


Egypt blocks pro Erdogan government statement, in the UN:

Egypt Blocks U.N. Call to Respect 'Democratically Elected' Turkish Government

UNITED NATIONS — The United Nations Security Council failed on Saturday to condemn the violence and unrest in Turkey after Egypt objected to a statement that called on all parties to "respect the democratically elected government of Turkey," diplomats said. ...

Diplomats said Egypt asked for a call for all parties to "respect the democratically elected government of Turkey" to be removed from the draft statement, saying the council is "in no position to qualify, or label that government — or any other government for that matter — as democratically elected or not." ...

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi is a former general who overthrew elected President Mohamed Mursi, of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, in 2013 after mass protests against Mursi. Turkey provided support for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/turkey-military-coup/egypt-blocks-u-n-call-respect-democratically-elected-turkish-government-n610941
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Cog » Sun 17 Jul 2016, 06:52:29

Nothing to worry about. The US government would never allow US personnel to be killed and dragged through the street.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 17 Jul 2016, 09:24:15

I guess O backed the wrong side on this one.

Shocking, just shocking.

It's starting to get interesting now.

I wonder how Hillary will spin it, and Trump.

I wouldn't be surprised to see all kinds of reactionary fall out in Europe.
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Re: MILITARY COUP IN TURKEY

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 17 Jul 2016, 11:30:21

Turkey urges US that harboring Gülen is a hostile act after coup attempt

Any country that would harbor Fethullah Gülen, the leader of the parallel state that is regarded as the mastermind of July 15’s coup attempt would not be Turkey’s friend, the Turkish prime minister has said, obviously urging the United States where the self-exile religious leader lives since late 1990s.

“I do not see any country that would stand behind this man, this leader of the terrorist gang especially after last night. The country that would stand behind this man is no friend to Turkey. It would even be a hostile act against Turkey,” Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım told reporters at a press conference on July 16 as the coup attempt has been foiled earlier in the day. ...

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who spoke late on July 15 to his Turkish counterpart Çavuşoğlu, said: "We haven't received any request with respect to Mr. Gülen."

"And obviously we invited the government of Turkey, as we always do, to present us with any legitimate evidence that withstands scrutiny and the United States will accept that and look at it and make judgements about it appropriately," he said.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-urges-us-that-harboring-gulen-is-a-hostile-act-after-coup-attempt.aspx?pageID=238&nID=101688&NewsCatID=510
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