[onlooker]

Not to be nostalgic but this is just more of the same. Rulers and their cronies looking for war to gain power, wealth. Just the names have changed. For some here who refuse to see the full gamut of atrocities and despicable actions by the West well you are willfully blind of current events and of history. Not to say that other regimes past and modern have not committed atrocities just voicing what many already know that the Western democracies and their holier than thou attitude is a sham and fraud. Just like the Corporations are selling us dangerous products under false pretense. So when Cid says back on topic, I get a disturbing feeling that it is all one topic. It is ruling elites and the consortium of Corporations and Banks and their political enablers having no care about the welfare of people now and especially into the future. Wantonly fueling a monstrous world economy to produce and sell without any care or consideration of damage to planet or people. It is nothing less than unmasking a psychopathic strain that runs throughout the ranks of these elites and their enablers. It is about the system of Capitalism tailored to these kinds of people who revel in the attainment of power and wealth at any price. War, Ecocide etc. all just consequences for the sake of the power and wealth that these psychopaths can and wish to attain. It is time to call them what they are Psychopaths in every sense of the word..

[Tanada]

Not to be nostalgic but this is just more of the same. Rulers and their cronies looking for war to gain power, wealth. Just the names have changed. For some here who refuse to see the full gamut of atrocities and despicable actions by the West well you are willfully blind of current events and of history. Not to say that other regimes past and modern have not committed atrocities just voicing what many already know that the Western democracies and their holier than thou attitude is a sham and fraud. Just like the Corporations are selling us dangerous products under false pretense. So when Cid says back on topic, I get a disturbing feeling that it is all one topic. It is ruling elites and the consortium of Corporations and Banks and their political enablers having no care about the welfare of people now and especially into the future. Wantonly fueling a monstrous world economy to produce and sell without any care or consideration of damage to planet or people. It is nothing less than unmasking a psychopathic strain that runs throughout the ranks of these elites and their enablers. It is about the system of Capitalism tailored to these kinds of people who revel in the attainment of power and wealth at any price. War, Ecocide etc. all just consequences for the sake of the power and wealth that these psychopaths can and wish to attain. It is time to call them what they are Psychopaths in every sense of the word..

Right up to the point where you try throwing the term Capitalism into it I agree with what you wrote. I do not understand this compulsion to try and tie every evil in the world into normal human behavior by twisting the meaning of words around. This is not 'capitalism', this is state imperialism, or state corporatism. Capitalism, much like Progressivism and Liberalism and Conservatism are terms that politicians and other power seekers have claimed for themselves and twisted to excuse whatever disgusting practices they wish to engage in. Far better to use words that actually describe their power grab antics than to use the catch all term that has lost much of its original meaning.

[onlooker]

Okay Tanada, I think perhaps we can use the words Oligarchy, Plutocracy, Kleptocracy and such. I simply use the word Capitalism to describe what most would recognize as the system of private ownership, profit incentives, lending, private possessions and use of money. It is true that it would not be the exact definition especially I think as written by Adam Smith "Wealth of nations". This is to distinguish the type of economic system from the type of leadership system or ruling system. Perhaps if you or someone else can come up with a better word to describe the economic system with the characteristics I mentioned, I would gladly use it.

[Tanada]

Okay Tanada, I think perhaps we can use the words Oligarchy, Plutocracy, Kleptocracy and such. I simply use the word Capitalism to describe what most would recognize as the system of private ownership, profit incentives, lending, private possessions and use of money. It is true that it would not be the exact definition especially I think as written by Adam Smith "Wealth of nations". This is to distinguish the type of economic system from the type of leadership system or ruling system. Perhaps if you or someone else can come up with a better word to describe the economic system with the characteristics I mentioned, I would gladly use it.

I think the term Corporatism fits pretty well, essentially it mean Oligarchy in the modern context but most modern internet users have no clue what the word Oligarch or Oligarchy mean without calling up the dictionary. Every small business owner is a capitalist, or a charity, but very few of them are Corporatists or Oligarchs. They wouldn't be "SMALL" business owners if they were lol, but when people throw around the word evil capitalist they are painting every mom and pop business, hardware store franchisee or other chain store franchisee with the same brush. Your local Taco Bell or Ace Hardware has very little resemblance to General Motors or big Wall Street investment firms.

[dissident]

Capitalism, state capitalism, feudalism are all isomorphic. There does not exist a system that is not open to abuse by the "state" or oligarchy. People think that since they don't live under communism that they are in some other reality. You live in an oligarchy that functions just like communism. Instead of worker slogan banners you have corporate ads which serve the same purpose. You can vote until you are blue in the face but you decide next to nothing. Politicians aren't there to serve you. They serve their oligarch (aka corporate) masters.

It is interesting how the ex-commie countries smoothly transitioned into oligarchies. That's not an accident.

[onlooker]

Capitalism, state capitalism, feudalism are all isomorphic. There does not exist a system that is not open to abuse by the "state" or oligarchy. People think that since they don't live under communism that they are in some other reality. You live in an oligarchy that functions just like communism. Instead of worker slogan banners you have corporate ads which serve the same purpose. You can vote until you are blue in the face but you decide next to nothing. Politicians aren't there to serve you. They serve their oligarch (aka corporate) masters.

It is interesting how the ex-commie countries smoothly transitioned into oligarchies. That's not an accident.

Well said Dissident

[onlooker]

So we have the investigation and blaming of Blair in Great Britain relative to involvement in Iraq and now this admission by the former head of the Federal Reserve that Iraq was about oil. Seems now that people everywhere are trying to hold accountable those responsible for all the mayhem unleashed in the Middle East including of course rabid Terrorism. People seem to be clamoring for justice on many fronts nowdays. Below is link, oh and maybe from here we can continue to make progress on 911 and pulling the curtain on this whole edifice of the War on Terrorism and how it was and is the ultimate fascist of constructs made possible by the heinous complicity of the US in 911. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/ ... are_btn_fb

[vtsnowedin]

So we have the investigation and blaming of Blair in Great Britain relative to involvement in Iraq and now this admission by the former head of the Federal Reserve that Iraq was about oil. Seems now that people everywhere are trying to hold accountable those responsible for all the mayhem unleashed in the Middle East including of course rabid Terrorism. People seem to be clamoring for justice on many fronts nowdays. Below is link, oh and maybe from here we can continue to make progress on 911 and pulling the curtain on this whole edifice of the War on Terrorism and how it was and is the ultimate fascist of constructs made possible by the heinous complicity of the US in 911. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/ ... are_btn_fb

NSS Iraq as a major oil producer for decades has to always be looked at in terms of oil. But Saddam Hussein was selling his oil on the world market so what did we gain by disrupting that supply for over a decade? It is not like we seized those fields and pumped them dry without paying for any of it.
But if your going to lump that in with the 9-1-1 conspiracy where our government paid a bunch of Saudi Nationals to hijack four jets and fly them into the pentagon and the trade towers that were rigged with explosives for some nefarious reason I guess one conspiracy is as good as the next.
You ought to go to work for Marvel comics and right stories for Bat Man and Captain America.

[Plantagenet]

Of course past wars in the ME were over oil.

But you don't have to travel 15 years back in time to find wars for oil. Just pick up today's newspaper.

The current US wars in Iraq and Syria are also over oil.

The US war in Libya was over oil too.



Cheers!

[efarmer]

Al Qaeda had a strategy of hitting us and then bringing us up into a killing field they experienced and wielded against the Soviets In Afghanistan, including the understanding of the huge "Hole in the Wall" refuge represented by the Pashtun up in the Hindu Kush and self governing zones of Pakistan. We instead pursued nation building in Afghanistan, and then curiously invaded Iraq and pursued nation building there. The last major empire before us, The British Empire, has bolted themselves onto the American Empire since WWII many times, seemingly as a way to continue the adventures. The Iraq War and the subsequent Global Financial Crisis were all projects driven by large efforts in New York, Washington, and London with horrible global consequences. We have played the game of blaming the aftermath from these incredible mistakes on whomever achieves office to take them on their back for the next 4 or 8 years. I suppose we shall do this for decades hence, as it is politically impossible for us to admit that we went naughty in the heady fever of being the only superpower on the planet and we created consequences beyond our own ability to correct and simultaneously damaged our credibility to build real consensus outside of our own sphere, unless we borrow money to just simply buy a friend. In essence I submit we had oil boys come to supreme political power, and to attempt to use the leverage of being the only superpower to address all the greatest financial threats we were facing with the most grandiose Central Asian, Middle East, and North African Oil Play they could conjure up. The subprime financial shenanigans allowed to fester in the same period were going to be addressed by the big win in the Oil Play, and in the aftermath of no big win, simply caved in of their own dead weight. I often heard the phrase in this period that "We don't cut and run" which I believe is a cowboy aphorism of some sort, in truth we invaded and camped for 15 years and hurt ourselves badly in many ways. Seemingly, this was what we were surmised to be dumb enought to do in the very beginning by the mujahideen that were empowered by their defeat of the Soviets while we supplied them with material during the 1980's. We had a lot of intelligence and academics and career diplomatic people who knew better, it took a lot of rags stuffed in mouths, media smear and character assasination, and overpowering of logic with chutzpah to shut them down, but we managed to get this done and off to the big adventure. We hurt ourselves and wish we could blame someone else and not have a sore ass and all the shame of it being self inflicted. Mr. Greenspan became a financial media star left to conjure words like "irrational exubberance" and "froth" as he kept his fingers on the tapper of our financial keg and watched cups of foam being sold as liquid gold. We will probably do it again if we get the chance because it is lucrative for the lucky few and they don't have to pay for it. We surely will, and so will our childrens, and then theirs, either with money they can make, or not making any.

[onlooker]

Really good analysis Efarmer, but I disagree with one assertion this one
"We instead pursued nation building in Afghanistan, and then curiously invaded Iraq and pursued nation building there." We were and are not pursuing nation building rather nation destroying. Our policy as near as I can tell, is one of creating a vacuum in places and then either filling it with a regime of our liking ie. cooperative to us or taking advantage of the chaos by intermittently aligning with one group or another vying for power as suits us

[efarmer]

Onlooker I agree that our Nation Building is more similar to nation or region destroying in truth, but I was speaking to our aspirations and declarations and not our results. We may get better at it someday, or stop trying to do it, but until then we shall wear our nation building medal right on the chest of the Emporor's New Clothes, which will probably be a painful chapter as well.

[efarmer]

I submit this classic tale learned in my childhood as being applicable.
As Twain said, history does not repeat but instead rhymes with itself.
In our rhyme, Our Emporor had strategically placed froth covering his
irrational exubberance, and this provided a modicum of decorum and
modesty. The front was therfore tempered although there was not
enough froth available, and his ass was showing the entire time.

The Emporor's New Clothes, by Hans Christian Anderson

Many years ago there was an Emperor so exceedingly fond of new clothes that he spent all his money on being well dressed. He cared nothing about reviewing his soldiers, going to the theatre, or going for a ride in his carriage, except to show off his new clothes. He had a coat for every hour of the day, and instead of saying, as one might, about any other ruler, "The King's in council," here they always said. "The Emperor's in his dressing room."

In the great city where he lived, life was always gay. Every day many strangers came to town, and among them one day came two swindlers. They let it be known they were weavers, and they said they could weave the most magnificent fabrics imaginable. Not only were their colors and patterns uncommonly fine, but clothes made of this cloth had a wonderful way of becoming invisible to anyone who was unfit for his office, or who was unusually stupid.

"Those would be just the clothes for me," thought the Emperor. "If I wore them I would be able to discover which men in my empire are unfit for their posts. And I could tell the wise men from the fools. Yes, I certainly must get some of the stuff woven for me right away." He paid the two swindlers a large sum of money to start work at once.

They set up two looms and pretended to weave, though there was nothing on the looms. All the finest silk and the purest old thread which they demanded went into their traveling bags, while they worked the empty looms far into the night.

"I'd like to know how those weavers are getting on with the cloth," the Emperor thought, but he felt slightly uncomfortable when he remembered that those who were unfit for their position would not be able to see the fabric. It couldn't have been that he doubted himself, yet he thought he'd rather send someone else to see how things were going. The whole town knew about the cloth's peculiar power, and all were impatient to find out how stupid their neighbors were.

"I'll send my honest old minister to the weavers," the Emperor decided. "He'll be the best one to tell me how the material looks, for he's a sensible man and no one does his duty better."

So the honest old minister went to the room where the two swindlers sat working away at their empty looms.

"Heaven help me," he thought as his eyes flew wide open, "I can't see anything at all". But he did not say so.

Both the swindlers begged him to be so kind as to come near to approve the excellent pattern, the beautiful colors. They pointed to the empty looms, and the poor old minister stared as hard as he dared. He couldn't see anything, because there was nothing to see. "Heaven have mercy," he thought. "Can it be that I'm a fool? I'd have never guessed it, and not a soul must know. Am I unfit to be the minister? It would never do to let on that I can't see the cloth."

"Don't hesitate to tell us what you think of it," said one of the weavers.

"Oh, it's beautiful -it's enchanting." The old minister peered through his spectacles. "Such a pattern, what colors!" I'll be sure to tell the Emperor how delighted I am with it."

"We're pleased to hear that," the swindlers said. They proceeded to name all the colors and to explain the intricate pattern. The old minister paid the closest attention, so that he could tell it all to the Emperor. And so he did.

The swindlers at once asked for more money, more silk and gold thread, to get on with the weaving. But it all went into their pockets. Not a thread went into the looms, though they worked at their weaving as hard as ever.

The Emperor presently sent another trustworthy official to see how the work progressed and how soon it would be ready. The same thing happened to him that had happened to the minister. He looked and he looked, but as there was nothing to see in the looms he couldn't see anything.

"Isn't it a beautiful piece of goods?" the swindlers asked him, as they displayed and described their imaginary pattern.

"I know I'm not stupid," the man thought, "so it must be that I'm unworthy of my good office. That's strange. I mustn't let anyone find it out, though." So he praised the material he did not see. He declared he was delighted with the beautiful colors and the exquisite pattern. To the Emperor he said, "It held me spellbound."

All the town was talking of this splendid cloth, and the Emperor wanted to see it for himself while it was still in the looms. Attended by a band of chosen men, among whom were his two old trusted officials-the ones who had been to the weavers-he set out to see the two swindlers. He found them weaving with might and main, but without a thread in their looms.

"Magnificent," said the two officials already duped. "Just look, Your Majesty, what colors! What a design!" They pointed to the empty looms, each supposing that the others could see the stuff.

"What's this?" thought the Emperor. "I can't see anything. This is terrible!

Am I a fool? Am I unfit to be the Emperor? What a thing to happen to me of all people! - Oh! It's very pretty," he said. "It has my highest approval." And he nodded approbation at the empty loom. Nothing could make him say that he couldn't see anything.

His whole retinue stared and stared. One saw no more than another, but they all joined the Emperor in exclaiming, "Oh! It's very pretty," and they advised him to wear clothes made of this wonderful cloth especially for the great procession he was soon to lead. "Magnificent! Excellent! Unsurpassed!" were bandied from mouth to mouth, and everyone did his best to seem well pleased. The Emperor gave each of the swindlers a cross to wear in his buttonhole, and the title of "Sir Weaver."

Before the procession the swindlers sat up all night and burned more than six candles, to show how busy they were finishing the Emperor's new clothes. They pretended to take the cloth off the loom. They made cuts in the air with huge scissors. And at last they said, "Now the Emperor's new clothes are ready for him."

Then the Emperor himself came with his noblest noblemen, and the swindlers each raised an arm as if they were holding something. They said, "These are the trousers, here's the coat, and this is the mantle," naming each garment. "All of them are as light as a spider web. One would almost think he had nothing on, but that's what makes them so fine."

"Exactly," all the noblemen agreed, though they could see nothing, for there was nothing to see.

"If Your Imperial Majesty will condescend to take your clothes off," said the swindlers, "we will help you on with your new ones here in front of the long mirror."

The Emperor undressed, and the swindlers pretended to put his new clothes on him, one garment after another. They took him around the waist and seemed to be fastening something - that was his train-as the Emperor turned round and round before the looking glass.

"How well Your Majesty's new clothes look. Aren't they becoming!" He heard on all sides, "That pattern, so perfect! Those colors, so suitable! It is a magnificent outfit."

Then the minister of public processions announced: "Your Majesty's canopy is waiting outside."

"Well, I'm supposed to be ready," the Emperor said, and turned again for one last look in the mirror. "It is a remarkable fit, isn't it?" He seemed to regard his costume with the greatest interest.

The noblemen who were to carry his train stooped low and reached for the floor as if they were picking up his mantle. Then they pretended to lift and hold it high. They didn't dare admit they had nothing to hold.

So off went the Emperor in procession under his splendid canopy. Everyone in the streets and the windows said, "Oh, how fine are the Emperor's new clothes! Don't they fit him to perfection? And see his long train!" Nobody would confess that he couldn't see anything, for that would prove him either unfit for his position, or a fool. No costume the Emperor had worn before was ever such a complete success.

"But he hasn't got anything on," a little child said.

"Did you ever hear such innocent prattle?" said its father. And one person whispered to another what the child had said, "He hasn't anything on. A child says he hasn't anything on."

"But he hasn't got anything on!" the whole town cried out at last.

The Emperor shivered, for he suspected they were right. But he thought, "This procession has got to go on." So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn't there at all.

[careinke]

Nazi leaders were hung for their 'war of aggression'.

Nazi leaders lost the war. Also, sovereign nations are not obligated to follow international law, this is why they are called sovereign.

[Lore]

Capitalism, state capitalism, feudalism are all isomorphic. There does not exist a system that is not open to abuse by the "state" or oligarchy. People think that since they don't live under communism that they are in some other reality. You live in an oligarchy that functions just like communism. Instead of worker slogan banners you have corporate ads which serve the same purpose. You can vote until you are blue in the face but you decide next to nothing. Politicians aren't there to serve you. They serve their oligarch (aka corporate) masters.

It is interesting how the ex-commie countries smoothly transitioned into oligarchies. That's not an accident.

+1 on that! Our corporate profitiers do throw out a few scraps though to keep the masses thinking that they are working for them.

[sparky]

.
Quote from Sir Arthur Harris ,more commonly known as "Bomber Harris" ,Chief of Bomber command ,made 1st Baronet

" Dresden? There is not such a place any longer." "I want to point out, that besides Essen, we never actually considered any particular industrial sites as targets. The destruction of industrial sites always was some sort of bonus for us.
Our real targets always were the inner cities."

"If we had lost the war , I would have been condemned as a war criminal"

[jedrider]

Thank you efarmer: We have a failed paradigm, but doesn't it look wonderful?

[Shaved Monkey]

Of course past wars in the ME were over oil.

But you don't have to travel 15 years back in time to find wars for oil. Just pick up today's newspaper.

The current US wars in Iraq and Syria are also over oil.

The US war in Libya was over oil too.



Cheers!

WW1 and WW11 were over oil

[ROCKMAN]

Monkey - Or even in a broader concept almost every war in history centered on economic considerations. And often focused on commodities including energy. And a commodity might even be land: the US govt essentially declared war on the Indian Nation to allow expansion of our nation. As an aside I immediately wondered what native Americans thought when they heard the Orlando described as the worse incidence of mass shooting in US history? Such as the 50+ women and children killed at Wounder Knee: "The conflict at Wounded Knee was originally referred to as a battle, but in reality it was a tragic and avoidable massacre. Surrounded by heavily armed troops, it’s unlikely that Big Foot’s band would have intentionally started a fight. Some historians speculate that the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry were deliberately taking revenge for the regiment’s defeat at Little Bighorn in 1876." As has been said many times: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

But here's the question: when is it not moral to defend the economic interests of your citizens? As I suspect we'll see from responses that this is not a very easy answer for most here.

[claman]

Onlooker. Dissident is right.
Take a look at this link :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy