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Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

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Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 07 Jul 2016, 13:30:23

Just an article I noticed, generally that source globalresearch.ca is just all pro russia propaganda all the time, but this is actually some good objective analysis:

Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal
By Vladimir Frolov

Russian President Vladimir Putin is in deconfliction mode with the West after a wild ride of two and a half years of military and diplomatic tensions.

In a wide ranging policy speech at a biannual meeting of Russian ambassadors on July 1, Putin did not just go through the regular litany of complaints over the West ignoring Russia’s interests, NATO expansion, U.S. unilateralism, missile defense and overthrowing regimes in ”color revolutions.”

He eschewed saber-rattling over NATO’s decisions to deploy additional forces in the Baltics, called Western countries partners in creating a ”broad anti-terrorist front,” and emphasized Russia’s interest in ”close cooperation with the United States on international affairs.”

Only two weeks before, at the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, Putin said Russia accepted the United States as the ”only superpower” and wanted to work with it, provided the United States kept its democracy lectures to itself.

On a visit to Finland a few days ago, Putin agreed to hold a meeting of the Russia-NATO Council after NATO’s Warsaw summit this week, accepted NATO’s proposal for preventing military air and sea incidents and instructed Russia’s defense minister to fly Russian military planes over the Baltic Sea with their transponders on.

Since early 2016, Putin and other senior Russian officials have been signaling Moscow’s interest in de-escalating tensions with the West. They want to normalize relations Moscow views as going back to pre-Crimea, bracketing it out as Russia and the West managed to do after Russia’s 2008 war with Georgia, without any rollback of Russian policies to exert control over Ukraine.

Moscow has been taking stock of its forceful policies to reassert Russia’s status as a global power and to rollback the expansion of Western institutions into the former Soviet space that Russia views as its rightful sphere of influence. These policies of managed confrontation with the West over Ukraine and later Syria have been widely popular with the domestic audience in Russia — over 60 percent think Russia’s foreign policy is successful — and boosted Putin’s domestic support to stratospheric levels.

Yet, actual policy results have been somewhat underwhelming. Moscow has proven its ability to wreck Ukraine to prevent it from joining Western alliances. But the costs have been enormous both in terms of Western economic sanctions, diplomatic isolation and a ruined relationship with a close neighbor. Yet, the West has refused to recognize Russia’s sphere of influence and has ignored calls to flesh out a new Yalta agreement on the post-Cold War settlement.

Moscow’s military position with regard to the West has actually deteriorated as NATO began applying the worst-case assumptions to Moscow’s irresponsible saber-rattling and unpredictable behavior and began planning for additional troop deployments, a race Moscow could not win. The policy of aggressively deterring the United States and NATO was fast approaching a point of diminishing returns.

Russia has weathered the sanctions’ impact and its economy did not collapse. But the sanctions have been limited and it became clear that a more forceful Western response, like bans on exports to the EU and the suspension of SWIFT transactions could have resulted in a devastating blow to Russia’s economy, while a pivot to Asia proved harder to achieve.

Moscow’s daring military intervention in Syria in 2015 succeeded in piercing Russia’s isolation over Ukraine and was somewhat breathtakingly hailed as the country’s ascension to the elite club on a par with the United States, capable of deploying military force abroad to affect political outcomes.

Russia may have rescued Syrian President Bashar Assad’s regime from a military defeat, but its investment of blood and treasure has bought it only more Assad and some limited cooperation with the United States. Now, almost a year after its intervention, Moscow is still stuck in Syria and is on the verge of owning its mess of a civil war — Iran is sharing in this investment.

It desperately needs a political exit to declare victory and go home, but that could only be engineered through cooperation with the United States, Turkey (hence the latest rapprochement) and Saudi Arabia.

Vladimir Frolov is a political analyst.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/vladimir-putins-new-us-russia-detente-proposal/5534453


So, interesting.

Perhaps Putin and the kremlin are a lot smarter / more rational than anyone suspected?

The sabre-rattling / drama / scaremongering about the West, and Crimea annexation and Ukraine troubles and stirring things up in the Baltics and then Russian involvement in Syria -- has all been *popular*, domestically in Russia. Putin's approval is higher than ever before.

Yet apparently, he has come to see the reality that these policies haven't actually brought Russia (or himself) any tangible benefit.

The above article says Putin's really been in deconfliction mode since early this year.

I think the article's right. It make sense to me. ESPECIALLY things like Russia saying it wants to use transponders for safety now.. and then that other news, where the kremlin fired all the top commanders in the baltics.. I have a hunch that could really be because Putin wants to deconflict more, and therefore he had to get rid of the hardliners / cowboys.

If the article I linked is correct, the kremlin sees the reality that cold war and just fighting the West on every last thing -- even if it can be pumped up on Russian tv and be popular with Russian people -- is actually just objectively not any good for the country, and maybe Putin and the kremlin are smart enough to make that rational logical conclusion.

So, this is all good news for peace in the world. (and Europe and the US were right to stand up to the kremlin, to the extent that it did.. with sanctions, increasing NATO troop levels, etc.)

Perhaps the Russians were just playing chess, all along. If being the big bad guy in the world is just logically and rationally not actually benefiting their country, perhaps Russian leaders are logical and rational enough to independently conclude that.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Thu 07 Jul 2016, 14:09:50, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 07 Jul 2016, 14:38:47

Apparently the Obama administration has made a deal with Putin, for more US-Russian cooperation in Syria. An article criticizing this, saying that it makes the US an ally of Assad:

US-Russia ‘deal’ will only serve to strengthen Assad

While details of the military deal between Russia and the United States over Syria have not been made public, Josh Rogin of the Washington Post revealed the gist of a possible agreement last week. Critics feel the plan, if it is approved, will turn the Obama administration into a de facto ally of Bashar Al Assad’s regime.

The agreement would allow for an expansion of the US-Russian bombing campaign to include Jabhat Al Nusra, the Al Qaeda affiliate in Syria and arguably the most effective foe of the pro-Assad groups. In return for such collaboration, certain Syrian rebel groups aligned with Washington would be informed of safe areas where they would not be targeted by the Syrian air force.

By bringing the United States into a cooperation agreement against Al Nusra, the accord would have a direct bearing on the balance of power in the Syrian war. Until now the Obama administration has not involved itself in the domestic dimension of the conflict, focusing instead on rolling back ISIL.
http://www.thenational.ae/opinion/comment/us-russia-deal-will-only-serve-to-strengthen-assad


For my opinion, I don't really care about US and Russia working together -- but they most certainly should not be scaring Finland and the Baltics at the same time. Any deal with Russia in Syria, should be contingent on Russia cooling it on the Baltics borders.

Otherwise it makes no logical sense to fly with Russia in Syria, while still having problems with Russia in the Baltics.

From the Russian standpoint -- inserting themselves into that very messy region-wide geolpolitical bloc conflict, and forcing their presence to be accepted / an associate of the coalition, *is about the best they could possibly manage*.

Otherwise, Russia can't handle Syria all on its own (and they CAN'T even operate there without being on good terms with the multi nation coalition because otherwise they risk conflict with a large portion of the whole darn world).. and the Russian government full well knows all this.

I don't mind seeing cooperation / deals made with Russia in Syria, but it's just that there needs to be something got for that in return, in the Baltics.

And maybe that has been done, I don't know, we'll see what happens with the transponders idea and for all I know maybe Putin firing those Baltics commanders was something the West appreciates.

And, they mended fences with Turkey and that's a good thing.

They just need to mend those fences in the Baltics now too, that's all I'm saying.

We shall see.. if Putin could be more of a good neighbor in Europe, then sure, he could be more of an accepted partner elsewhere in the world.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 07 Jul 2016, 15:11:27

GASMON wrote:Agree Six.

The west will never change Putin. Best to keep an arms length "friendship".


EDIT: rephrased for brevity, my posts are gettin' too long again. :lol:

I agree with you Gas, but it's not like they just can't ever be trusted.

Russia just needs to get back to the Yeltsin years and then ro-do history a bit.. take that other road of being a successful western democratic capitalist economy, modernize the economy and get corruption out, put the presidential term limits back in the constitution, etc. etc.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby eugene » Thu 07 Jul 2016, 17:56:10

The US needs to stop. Our constant, belligerent behavior is a threat everywhere. However, as we decline, it is unlikely we will do so. Empires do not have a history of going quietly. Whether Americans want to believe it or not, our aggression in eastern Europe never stopped at the "end" of the Cold War. Putin has little choice except to draw a line in the sand and say "stop".
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Jul 2016, 18:20:52

Putin is a dictator with delusions of grandeur. He is not the West's friend no matter how much the Putin worshippers here try to idolize the man.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby radon1 » Fri 08 Jul 2016, 03:00:29

Pu's finances are slowly bleeding. At some point he will have difficulty in dealing with his "vertical of power" (bureaucracy), population and the west all at once. Hence he has to be thoughtful.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Fri 08 Jul 2016, 05:27:35

On the fringe, some sources are indicating that the US is actively considering a nuclear war with Russia to cover up a domestic economic collapse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShIkqCzqv1k

https://youtu.be/VZGwucvk0Ko?t=13m3s

A Detente proposal is good news
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 08 Jul 2016, 09:16:39

Sixstrings wrote:Yet apparently, he has come to see the reality that these policies haven't actually brought Russia (or himself) any tangible benefit.


You're kidding right? Crimea is worth, at a minimum, a couple TRILLION in USD to Russia.

This whole fight is, and always has been, about Crimea, and Sevastopol in particular. Putin has done everything possible to pull the West's eyes and interest away, towards Donbas, towards Syria. He's sunk billions and billions of USD into Crimean infrastructure; mostly to greatly increase the volume/time of material and people able to move between the Russian mainland and Sevastopol.

Its really a simple, honest assessment, Crimea is worth more than current sanctions, is worth more than all trade with the EU, is worth more than access to SWIFT. And to those proposing to terminate Rus access to SWIFT, I give you the only two available options. Europeans begin paying for Russian energy, in Shanghai, clearing within the Chinese system; instantly granting China the scale and diversity of operations they need; or Europeans forgo Russian energy and pay a good 50% premium to buy LNG. If America were a fair and decent country, we'd ship Europe that gas at a loss, in perpetuity, so that they wouldn't need to bear the greatest portion of cost. But we aren't fair, nor decent.

The follow on to this, is that if you ban Russian energy exports to the EU, China is going to have an even greater energy cost advantage; and the Russians will be under greater pressure to not be so persnickety with the terms of their contracts. This would hurt Russia a little but don't pretend that a country that produces both excess food and energy, and has sufficient manufacturing to meet requirements (not necessarily desires); would ever collapse or surrender as a result of being unable to buy German chocolate bars.

So basically, you hurt Russia a little, continue to face defeat in the Crimean War Mark21C; and grant China an ENORMOUS industrial competitive advantage on all forms of energy. Because Rus don't just sell Gas. They sell the whole package, Gas, oil, coal, nuclear, and electricity direct; and China would just love to get preferred customer pricing on the whole deal (without having to spend ten years writing a contract). Do you seriously want to give China that cost advantage at the same time their middle income levels are rising to industrial standards? Such a period is exactly what put us on top of the heap; do it with China, and they have several times the GDP growth potential that we did.

Putin, in this initiative, is putting the "official" stamp on his victory over NATO/EU.

I think the article's right. It make sense to me. ESPECIALLY things like Russia saying it wants to use transponders for safety now


Non starter. NATO will *not* unhide its recon. Remember, subtle???? Subtle means sneaky, non-detection. You don't put a beacon on something you want to be hidden.

So, this is all good news for peace in the world. (and Europe and the US were right to stand up to the kremlin, to the extent that it did.. with sanctions, increasing NATO troop levels, etc.)


We didn't stand up to Russia. We've accepted DEFEAT. If you want to stand up to Russia, 50,000 NATO troops landing in Sevastopol would be just a start. Expect 99% of the civilian population of Sevastopol to try to kill those troops; but, we'd just be getting started.

Perhaps the Russians were just playing chess, all along.


The Russians have been fighting the 21st century Crimean War for 2+ years.

And they've just about won, all that's left is tidying up the loose ends.
And, BTW, the victory was dirt cheap. The last time folks fought over Crimea, they were willing to see hundreds of thousands of people die for it.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 08 Jul 2016, 09:24:25

radon1 wrote:Pu's finances are slowly bleeding. At some point he will have difficulty in dealing with his "vertical of power" (bureaucracy), population and the west all at once. Hence he has to be thoughtful.


He's always buying time, delaying, freezing, pumping inertia into situations.

They are floating solid budget cutting for 2017. Which is where I think we'll see whether Russia progresses enough. They seriously need to ax a ton of bureacrats, and slash the budget; both to reduce the power of the bureacracy; and to move functions which should either be regional, or private, out of the hands of the Rus federal government.

My bet is that the ax is going to fall, and fall HARD; people will squeel, but no one will starve, the federal government comes out the other side with a smaller budget overall, much lower ownership in "state companies", and a somewhat smaller, more appropriate defense budget. An absolute definition of fiscal victory for Putin.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby dissident » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 09:24:53

AgentR11 wrote:
radon1 wrote:Pu's finances are slowly bleeding. At some point he will have difficulty in dealing with his "vertical of power" (bureaucracy), population and the west all at once. Hence he has to be thoughtful.


He's always buying time, delaying, freezing, pumping inertia into situations.

They are floating solid budget cutting for 2017. Which is where I think we'll see whether Russia progresses enough. They seriously need to ax a ton of bureacrats, and slash the budget; both to reduce the power of the bureacracy; and to move functions which should either be regional, or private, out of the hands of the Rus federal government.

My bet is that the ax is going to fall, and fall HARD; people will squeel, but no one will starve, the federal government comes out the other side with a smaller budget overall, much lower ownership in "state companies", and a somewhat smaller, more appropriate defense budget. An absolute definition of fiscal victory for Putin.


radon1 is spouting hysterical liberast (aka 5th column) BS. They always screech that the sky is falling and hope that the Russian people buy into their lies, spin and obfuscation and like in 1917 fall into a living Hell. These f*ckers never include any context into their hysteria. By NATO standards Russia's deficit is small. All of the revenue impact from oil prices has already worked its way into the budget structure since the prices collapsed two years ago. Oil prices are slowly recovering so there is a slow recovery in revenues.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/ ... 56581.html

A 2.6% deficit ($25 billion) is a joke for a country the size of Russia whose economy does not depend on selling some fad consumer item like tulips.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/ ... 52575.html

Assuming the economy experiences zero change that is 1.5/1.95 x 2.6 = 2%. A 2% deficit is a joke. Russia could cover this deficit 100% from the Reserve Fund for the next 18 years. Anyone who thinks that the oil prices will stay at under $50 forever is an idiot.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-franc ... NN20150326

How come I hear to hysteria about the looming collapse of France?

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united- ... ent-budget

Oh my, the UK has averaged a deficit of 4.1% of GDP since 1995. How come the UK is still around? According to radon1 and the rest of the liberasts Russia will poof out of existence in a couple of years since it has a deficit of about 2%.

Since this forum is such a circle jerk on Russia, here are some facts about the role of oil revenues in Russia's economy. The NATO mass media claims that Russia depends 50% on oil. This is a little trick to confuse people that Russia's GDP is 50% dependent on oil. In fact it depends on it for about 14% (2013 figures).

http://www.awarablogs.com/share-of-oil- ... ped-to-21/

Currently not even the Russian budget depends on oil to the tune of 50%. It depends only at the 21% level. Since oil demand is going to be around as long as oil can be produced this "dependence" is normal and intelligent since it offloads the tax burden from the population. But there is now some talk to increase the 13% flat income tax in Russia:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/ ... 63916.html

Russians need to learn that if they want western style social services they need to pay western tax rates and not 13% as they do now.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Cog » Sat 09 Jul 2016, 09:37:57

The circle-jerk love-fest for all things Russian and Putin worship in particular, continues unabated at Peak Oil. LOL
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 10 Jul 2016, 18:39:08

You have an odd definition of "love-fest"; diss is about the only pro-Putin poster; radon1 seems ambivalently resigned to Putin as President for Life; I'm pretty much in the "Russia is the enemy, but I can't figure out how to kill this enemy without getting a lot of Western Europeans killed. " Cog and Six seem to be in the camp of lets kill Russia even if millions of Western Europeans die too; a few conspiracy folks thinking nuclear war is an intended result for NATO planners.

Seems like a nice spectrum of views honestly.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 10 Jul 2016, 19:36:29

AgentR11 wrote:Cog and Six seem to be in the camp of lets kill Russia even if millions of Western Europeans die too


Speaking for myself, it's just a fact that if McCain had been prez or Romney, then Russia would never have even annexed Crimea.

Just as Bush just had a talk with Putin, and Putin / Lavrov took W. (and condi rice) seriously.. and they backed out of Georgia.

Brits and west euros don't know how to handle Russia. Democrats don't either. Honestly, it takes an establishment Republican.. it takes a John McCain.. and no that doesn't mean war, it actually means peace and conflict DOESN'T happen.

By the way, "lets kill Russia" is offensive.

No country is ever going to "invade Russia," least of all western democracies, and when you keep repeating that then you just perpetrate a notion that not even most Russians believe.

We've had this discussion before. Russia has problems with ALL their neighbors (except their new Chinese allies, but Russia doesn't half trust the Chinese either and never will).

It can't be EVERYONE *but* Russia's fault, and Russia is the only one that's right in the world, and everyone else is wrong.

Bottom line -- eventually when Russia has a new president, things will be so much better. Things never would have got bad to start with, if Medvedev had just stayed in and Putin never changed the constitution.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 10 Jul 2016, 20:29:55

McCain, nor Romney would have been able to prevent Crimea. They might have handled UA better.

Crimea was worth going to nuclear war over.

There are two possible permutations.
1) Russia captures Crimea.
2) Millions die in nuclear fire and no one remembers how to say the word "Crimea".

If you are saying McCain/Romney would have chosen #2, then I guess you might be right.

as to "No country is ever..."

Bold statement to describe something that keeps happening, over, and over, and over, and over and over and over.

As to fault. Of course its Russia's fault. They are the enemy. Though, to be honest, fault doesn't mean squat.

If Russia gets a new president in the next decade, we'll be back in full Cold War mode. The only ones that stand a chance of succeeding Putin are raving hotheads. Your liberasts have ZERO chance. A Green Party candidate winning the US Presidency is more likely.

As to Medvedev; yeah, he had no guts; we would have run all over him and taken Russia for everything they got, and everything they'd ever have had. Paired with Putin though.... he's very dangerous, and absolutely NOT your friend.
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Re: Vladimir Putin’s New US-Russia “Détente” Proposal

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 03:45:51

Back to "detente" and Putin.

Putin actually had some nice things to say, back at the June 20 economic conference in St. Petersburg:

“America is a great power. Today, probably, the only superpower. We accept that,” the Russian president said at the St Petersburg International Economic Forum. “We want to and are ready to work with the United States.”

Alluding to US-EU sanctions on Russia in response to its military actions in Ukraine, he continued: “The world needs such strong nations, like the US. And we need them. But we don’t need them constantly getting mixed up in our affairs, instructing us how to live, preventing Europe from building a relationship with us.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/18/vladimir-putin-donald-trump-striking-america-superpower


So, Putin said:

* America is the only superpower in the world, and he accepts that.
* Putin said the world needs a strong nation like the USA, and Russia needs us too.
* Putin says he wants to work with us, and he's ready to.
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