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THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

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THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 23 Jun 2016, 15:02:45

Here's a good overview of where we stand in the Summer of 2016.

http://fortune.com/self-driving-cars-si ... ey-detroit

We'll see where it goes.

Highlights:

driverless vehicles are poised to threaten the $570 billion that Americans spend each year on new cars. For 125 years U.S. auto companies made their money on the manufacture of motor vehicles. Now they must be in the business of ride-hailing apps, shuttle buses, 3D maps, and computers on wheels that drive themselves. They’re no longer automotive companies either—they’re now calling themselves “mobility” companies, just in case all those predictions about the end of car ownership come true.


Buried in this paragraph, one can presume that a dropoff in car manufacturing will also mean less energy consumed in the manufacture of cars and less gasoline burned (especially if these self-driving cars are EVs). On the flipside, doomers will just counter with "But it will kill jobs! Hence still doom!" And so the debate will rage on forever.

More:

analysts have long speculated about the coming of peak car, comparable to the peak in horse ownership in 1920. With cheap robo-taxis available to chauffeur people around cities, households that spend an average of $9,000 a year on transportation could lower that outlay to just $2,000. “Can the mobility sector capture all of that? I think no,” says Robin Chase, co-founder and former CEO of car-rental company Zipcar. “Car companies will still make money selling cars, but the whole market will shrink because we’ll use those vehicles more efficiently.”
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby GregT » Thu 23 Jun 2016, 17:22:59

ennui2 wrote:On the flipside, doomers will just counter with "But it will kill jobs!


Not so simple. It will kill the entire automobile industry, and the millions upon millions of spinoff jobs which rely upon it.

IOW, TEOTEAWKI, and TEOSOLAWKT. ( The end of the economy as we know it, and, the end of standards of living as we knew them.)

Hence still doom!
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 23 Jun 2016, 22:35:24

GregT wrote:
ennui2 wrote:On the flipside, doomers will just counter with "But it will kill jobs!


Not so simple. It will kill the entire automobile industry, and the millions upon millions of spinoff jobs which rely upon it.

IOW, TEOTEAWKI, and TEOSOLAWKT. ( The end of the economy as we know it, and, the end of standards of living as we knew them.)

Hence still doom!


Why do you think all the coal and nuclear plants are shutting down in the US?

Moron Ans: Because of global warming, "cheap" ponzi natural gas, and all that.

Truth Ans. Because the US auto manufacturers will soon go out of business.

Really the pseudos like ennui2 are pathetic:

"I"M SO EXCITED ABOUT NOT OWNING A CAR"

LOL...what next from these bankrupt clowns? Roofless houses?

"I"M SO EXCITED ABOUT OWNING A ROOFLESS HOUSE TOO"
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby vox_mundi » Fri 24 Jun 2016, 09:06:15

Your Self-Driving Car Will Be Programmed To Kill You - Deal With It

Image

A new study published in Science shows there’s a big disconnect between the kinds of ethical programming we want these vehicles to have, and the kinds of cars we actually want to ride in. Surveys done last year demonstrate that people tend to take a utilitarian approach to safety ethics. That is, they generally agree that a car with one rider should swerve off the road and crash to avoid a crowd of 10 pedestrians. But when the survey’s respondents were asked if they’d actually ride in a vehicle programmed in this way, they said no thanks.

Image
Situations involving imminent unavoidable harm: the autonomous vehicle must decide between (A) killing several pedestrians or one passerby, (B) killing one pedestrian or its own passenger, and (C) killing several pedestrians or its own passenger. (Image and caption credit: J. Bonnefon et al., 2016)

Results of the survey showed that people are on board with utilitarian-minded robotic vehicles, and would be content to see others buy them. This is an easy sell; the needs of one or two individuals, we tend to agree, is greatly outweighed by the needs of the many. The more lives saved, the more inclined people are towards this utilitarian attitude. As shown in the survey, as many as 76 percent of respondents were cool with a vehicle being programmed to sacrifice one passenger if it meant saving the lives of 10 pedestrians.

But these same people showed considerably less enthusiasm when it came to their desire to purchase or ride in one of these autonomous vehicles. When asked to rate the morality of a car programmed to crash and kill its own passenger to save 10 pedestrians, the favorable rating dropped by an entire third when respondents had to consider the possibility that they’d be the ones riding in that car.

What we intellectually believe is true and what we in fact do may be two very different things,” ... “Humans are often selfish even as they profess altruism.”

“It shouldn’t be surprising that ordinary people haven’t thought deeply enough about ethics to be consistent,” said Lin, who wasn’t involved in the study. “Most people think that ethics is just about your ‘gut instinct’, but there’s so much more to that.

Humans are notoriously bad at risk assessments: we drink and drive, we text and drive, we go way over the speed limit, and so on,” he said. “If we really didn’t care about being killed, we wouldn’t be in a car in the first place or allow guns in society.” To which he added: “So, by asking for opinions from ordinary people, the study is collecting uninformed answers, and that’s not very helpful in resolving dilemmas, which may be useful in advertising and marketing, but not so much for law and ethics.”
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 24 Jun 2016, 12:04:55

None of the above. The software company will deem the car too important to sacrifice. They will keep statistics and routes in the flash memory banks for sale to advertisers and insurance companies and will have to save the data first, and then worry about the life.

1. Impending crash detected, begin mirroring of flash since last backup to auxiliary flash memory units in trunk and underside of vehicle.

2. Begin warning sequence to driver, ask him if he wishes to die to save pedestrians.

3. Ask driver if he is sure of his decision to avoid mistaken control sequences.

4. Inform driver of discontinuity in real time events versus driver and and bot communications are forcing an error 146. Ask driver if he wishes to use Help and find out more about error 146.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 24 Jun 2016, 12:10:25

GregT wrote:It will kill the entire automobile industry, and the millions upon millions of spinoff jobs which rely upon it.


Queue Monte and his NASCAR-doom.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 24 Jun 2016, 12:34:15

ennui2 wrote:
GregT wrote:It will kill the entire automobile industry, and the millions upon millions of spinoff jobs which rely upon it.


Queue Monte and his NASCAR-doom.


NASCAR DOOM!!! Wasn't that supposed to be a peak oil canary? That never...canaried..because peak oil turned out to be a flop?

Just as folks thought EVs wouldn't be possible...and then they were...and just as people thought they would need fossil fuel powered electricity...until people built more panels and now a new nuke coming on in the US....self driving cars are just the next thing in the sequence of "can't happen" that "already is"...and the Luddite brigades will find the next thing that "can't happen...but probably already is".....and so on and so forth.

All it takes is the belief that THE END IS NIGH!!! and everything becomes evidence of it. Copious.Abundance once ran that angle down all over the place around here didn't he? IT CAN'T HAPPEN!!! thundered the doomers. C.A whips ou a graph showing it already has. repeat endlessly.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby vox_mundi » Fri 24 Jun 2016, 13:14:44

efarmer wrote:... Inform driver of discontinuity in real time events versus driver and bot communications are forcing an error 146. Ask driver if he wishes to use Help and find out more about error 146.

Thanks! You made me laugh out loud! :-D
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 25 Jun 2016, 01:15:04

The fact is the biggest cause of deaths in accidents is people. Drunk drivers, distracted drivers, just plain bad drivers. I've become convinced that self-driving features will save a ton more lives than they'll take via Sophie's Choice situations. If every car had auto-braking and just that, rear-enders would pretty much disappear, for instance.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby careinke » Sat 25 Jun 2016, 02:47:19

ennui2 wrote:The fact is the biggest cause of deaths in accidents is people. Drunk drivers, distracted drivers, just plain bad drivers. I've become convinced that self-driving features will save a ton more lives than they'll take via Sophie's Choice situations. If every car had auto-braking and just that, rear-enders would pretty much disappear, for instance.


I agree, I'll take the automatic car over a driver every time.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 25 Jun 2016, 12:18:33

I'm puzzled about the prediction that the automobile companies are doomed due to this.

1). The best articles I've seen that construct REALISTIC timelines considering technology, laws, customs, human nature, economics, etc. (i.e. the real world, not what we wish would magically happen), it's likely roughly a 30(+) year transition from now to 99+% of vehicles on public roads being fully autonomous. This gives companies quite a bit of time to adapt.

2). The net mileage traveled by car won't necessarily decrease a lot. In fact, if the autonomous cars are efficient, comfortable, reliable, and cheap enough (per mile), and eliminate issues like hassling with parking -- demand for car travel could well increase. (For example, I HATE getting lost. As I age and my joints and eyes get worse, so I HATE driving long distances. Fully autonomous cars just might eliminate the first problem and greatly mitigate the second).

3). So if overall, the net car miles don't decrease by a lot (shared rides vs traveling between riders might be a rough trade-off, for example) -- then the number of cars sold might not decrease by a lot. The cars that sit in the driveway and are only driven 2000 miles a year will likely become things of the past. But cars will still wear out. In fact, having cars be very RELIABLE as a demand of autonomous car ridership might cause the average car to be sent to the scrapyard sooner (mileage wise) than it would otherwise, resulting in more cars built.

4). So overall, if there is a demand for 17 million-ish cars annually in the US, 20 million in China, etc. etc., then WHY are the automobile manufacturers threatened any, much less facing an existential threat?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 25 Jun 2016, 12:24:08

pstarr wrote:
vox_mundi wrote:
efarmer wrote:... Inform driver of discontinuity in real time events versus driver and bot communications are forcing an error 146. Ask driver if he wishes to use Help and find out more about error 146.

Thanks! You made me laugh out loud! :-D

yes vox. quite humorous. I am laughing. ha ha ha. error 146==blue screen of death. now I die.

And of course, the best part is that if the driver has time to find out about error 146, there will be no relevant documentation on that, due to cost savings. (Modern corporations and efficiency do have their real world costs -- I've run into this all too many times with real world PC peripheral hardware, when some great PC hardware company was taken over by some scumbag company. I'd MUCH rather have paid more for the better product -- but I don't get to vote on that).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby Sys1 » Tue 28 Jun 2016, 19:01:35

Soon, the only self driving cars available will be donkeys and horses...

Regarding AI in those technical car, the only acceptable behavior for the car is to preserve passengers whatever occurs. Even if it means killing 20 childrens to save one old lady in the car.
Why that? Because it would be ethically problematic that an AI DECIDES who should die.
A car is a machine, if the user knows that this machine could decide to kill him to save someone else, then the user won't accept to "drive" it. A machine should NEVER decide to kill someone. Picking up a decision, even with the best intentions, leads to danger when applyed to AI. It is the first step towards TERMINATOR. Living in a civilisation which accepts that a machine can decide to kill someone is a sign that this civilisation has no morality.

Moreover, it would be technically far more difficult than the shabby examples showed above :
- What if two 13 years old girls want to suicide and jump on the road while a mother get back to home in her AI car with food for her two babies at home with daddy? The AI car would immediatly kill the mother. Great!
- What if a young bad guy knowing how works AI car jump on the road while the old lady with her Google car crash on the wall? Funny!
- What if 2 AI cars with 2 adults and one children in each decide simultaneously to avoid 3 childrens crossing the road : 6 dead to save 3 childs who crossed the road hazardously. Sum of AI doesn't add up!

Those examples show that it is simply impossible to create an AI to drive car safely, except if you consider driving safely is driving very slowly.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 28 Jun 2016, 19:17:05

efarmer wrote:4. Inform driver of discontinuity in real time events versus driver and and bot communications are forcing an error 146. Ask driver if he wishes to use Help and find out more about error 146.
Oh that's bad! :-D

I'll continue it...

5. Would you like to install the "car windows" 10 update. Please select "yes right now", "momentarily yes" or press the "x button" that also means yes.

6. Car Windows is installing, windows has experienced a problem with your installation, please contact your... BOOM CRASH SMOOSH

7. Sending crash report to MicroCarSoft...
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 28 Jun 2016, 19:25:21

GregT wrote:
ennui2 wrote:On the flipside, doomers will just counter with "But it will kill jobs!


Not so simple. It will kill the entire automobile industry, and the millions upon millions of spinoff jobs which rely upon it.

IOW, TEOTEAWKI, and TEOSOLAWKT. ( The end of the economy as we know it, and, the end of standards of living as we knew them.)

Hence still doom!
Buggy Whips. Things change. Yeah, that said, I agree it will still suck. Prices will go up, people will stop owning cars, but still have to pay though the nose like they own a car and on top of that they will have to wait in the rain on a regular basis for their car to show up and the cars will all smell like a mix of bus/butt/vomit/overused new car scent and cigarettes and probably have bed bugs. And it will make stops along the way for the TSA to feel you up. That's what will happen. That is exactly what will happen. And on top of that the 1% will have their own self driving cars with a "fast lane" pass that makes your car pull over.

I can't wait! :lol: :P
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 28 Jun 2016, 21:46:40

Sorry, car-sharing is cheaper. No car payments and no insurance. I know it's hard to cut through the doomer blinders people are wearing, but that's the truth.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 28 Jun 2016, 22:12:50

FWIW,
In Oswego, NY today. Walked to a store a couple of miles, bought some stuff, wanted a ride back to the boat.
Uber.......nada
TAxi.......we are not available
Bus........hour wait

We lugged our stuff back ourselves.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby vox_mundi » Thu 30 Jun 2016, 20:05:42

Tesla driver killed in crash while using car's 'Autopilot'

The first U.S. fatality using self-driving technology took place in May when the driver of a Tesla S sports car operating the vehicle's "Autopilot" automated driving system died after a collision with a truck in Florida, federal officials said Thursday.

The government is investigating the design and performance of Tesla's system.

Preliminary reports indicate the crash occurred when a tractor-trailer rig made a left turn in front of the Tesla at an intersection of a divided highway where there was no traffic light, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said. The Tesla driver died due to injuries sustained in the crash, which took place May 7 in Williston, Florida, the agency said. The city is southwest of Gainesville.

Tesla said on its website that neither the driver nor the Autopilot noticed the white side of the trailer, which was perpendicular to the Model S, against the brightly lit sky, and neither applied the brakes.

"The high ride height of the trailer combined with its positioning across the road and the extremely rare circumstances of the impact caused the Model S to pass under the trailer," the company said. The windshield of the Model S collided with the bottom of the trailer.

By the time firefighters arrived, the wreckage of the Tesla—with its roof sheared off completely—was hundreds of feet from the crash site where it had come to rest in a nearby yard, assistant chief Danny Wallace of the Williston Fire Department told The Associated Press. The driver was pronounced dead, "Signal Seven" in the local firefighters' jargon, and they respectfully covered the wreckage and waited for crash investigators to arrive.

The company said this was the first known death in over 130 million miles of Autopilot operation. It said the NHTSA investigation is a preliminary inquiry to determine whether the system worked as expected.

Meanwhile, 112 humans were killed yesterday in autos due to their own negligence. Media response - yawn.
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Re: THE Self-Driving Car / Ridesharing Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Thu 30 Jun 2016, 23:07:26

112 humans were killed yesterday in autos due to their own negligence. Media response - yawn.


It's a good enough scandal for Planty to launch his campaign to get everyone to view Musk as guilty of manslaughter. Get ready for 8+ years of campaigning on his part to turn the handful of posters here into haters, just as he's been doing with Obama (and presumably Hillary--I don't really spend much time in the Hillary threads).

BTW, there was another report a while back about the Model S that was driven by a teenager and went flying in the air and the kid walked away unscathed.

The Achilles heel of autopilot is it doesn't factor in obstructions above bumper-level. It assumes anything ahead of it extends down to the ground rather than dangling in mid-air. This is why that other guy wrecked his car with Summon, since there was some beam or something in the way that was too high for the sensors to see. I suspect they're going to add a sensor pointing out the front window (maybe mounted to the rear-view-mirror) or somewhere else to detect higher objects.
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