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US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 14 May 2016, 12:17:15

Interesting, thanks for the links. The only stuff I could find was how proud they are of their electricication of bus routes and their serial hybrid diesel electric fleet additions.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 14 May 2016, 13:13:55

TARTA (the Toledo Area Regional Transit Authority) is sadly proud of their 'biodiesel initiative' where their fleet uses "up to 20 percent" biodiesel fuel. IMO this is nothing but pure green washing with a sop to local soybean farmers at most.

Hamilton on the other hand has already converted over some 20 percent of their municipal fleet and as their vehicles get replaced into the future the replacements are GNG from day one. I have a heck of a lot more respect for the Hamilton plan than the Toledo plan, Hamilton actually is doing something to improve their system.

Toledo/TARTA is just buying a small volume of different fuel, which doesn't require them to do anything at all. Toledo sits at the corner of Lake Erie, the gas lines going from the east coast to Chicago and vice versa pass through east to west, and the gas lines going north to south from Detroit to Cincinnati cross right through there as well. As a third factor there is a big corn ethanol plant northwest of here in Adrian, Michigan about 40 miles away, so if they went to burning ethanol it would make a lot more sense from a regional POV. Instead they are stuck in BAU with a little green washing coating over the top to try and appear progressive.

Green washing without actually doing anything remotely useful just really irritates the heck out of me.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sat 14 May 2016, 20:39:44

Diesel LPG co-burn trucks are becoming very common, in Australia, only about 5 years after they started to appear. Back then dual fuel stations were rare, now standard. Despite abundant NG it has gotten nowhere as a transport fuel here, apparently due to risk averse agencies & abundant YouTube NG horror videos.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 15 May 2016, 08:09:10

SeaGypsy wrote:Diesel LPG co-burn trucks are becoming very common, in Australia, only about 5 years after they started to appear. Back then dual fuel stations were rare, now standard. Despite abundant NG it has gotten nowhere as a transport fuel here, apparently due to risk averse agencies & abundant YouTube NG horror videos.


In the USA so far as I can tell those kind of engine additions needed to add LPG/Propane to a Diesel are all aftermarket additions and discouraged because they void vehicle warranty requirements. I don't know how it works in Australia, but around here anything you do to change a vehicle from OEM standards, unless done by the OEM themselves, voids your warranty even if the later problem has nothing to do with the system you modified.

It often seems our laws are designed to prevent innovation and adaptation rather than encourage it.

Adding an LPG/Propane aspiration system to a big rig Diesel can cut your fuel costs 20 to 35 percent depending on local markets, and savings tend to be towards the higher end for light trucks that can use household swap able Propane tanks. The system I know about injects propane or butane gas into the air intake of the Diesel engine under computer control, then after compression a small spurt of Diesel oil is injected to ignite the gas mix in the cylinder. If the LPG/Propane tank runs out the system switches without interruption to pure Diesel fuel burning mode. For long haul trips the 'gasses' tank can run dry switching to pure diesel operation but ultimately requiring more diesel over long distance trips than the duel fuel burning mode.

Is that the kind of system you are talking about Seagypsy?
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby toolpush » Sun 15 May 2016, 08:34:23

This should help the Nat gas truck market, this year, even thought the oil price is so low. Cummins are releasing a 6.7l nat gas engine, for school buses and medium trucks.

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2 ... ter-s.aspx

The ISL G 8.9 liter natural-gas engine made by CWI is installed in more trash trucks sold in the U.S. than any other engine, period. It's also a leading engine for transit buses, while the ISX12 G engine for heavy-duty applications is the primary natural-gas engine made for heavy trucking. Furthermore, this year, CWI is launching the ISB 6.7G, targeting the school bus and medium-duty market, and the ISL G Near-Zero, which will produce the lowest emissions of any combustion engine available.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 15 May 2016, 16:05:29

pstarr wrote:This story says a lot about the failure of alternative fuel systems. And my record of questioning such techtopian distractions.

These alt-fuel programs (bio-fuel, H2 fuel cell, CNG, EV, etc. etc.) started in California mandated by our rightly-concerned liberal wealthy population. The programs were tried and failed for a diverse list of reasons. There is no fault in this. No blame. It just didn't work. We knew that when I came here in 2004. It was obvious when GM, Toyota, Honda, Ford, Nissan, and Chrysler destroyed their EV programs in 2006.
What failure? In less than 10 years the US bus system went from less than a fifth of buses using alt fuels to nearly half. Alt fuels in buses are growing fast:

APTA’s latest research shows that 46.9 percent of U.S. public transportation buses were using alternative fuels or hybrid technology as of January 1, 2015. This is in striking contrast to the 2.5 percent of automobiles using alternative-fuels in 2014 (the most recent year that data is available).

APTA statistics for 2015 show that 22.3 percent of U.S. public transit buses report using compressed natural gas (CNG), liquefied natural gas (LNG) and blends. Hybrid buses comprise 16.7 percent of U.S. transit buses, while biodiesel public transit buses account for 7.4 percent. Other alternative fuels, such as propane and hydrogen, account for 0.3 percent.
Public Transportation Industry Is a Green Industry

Year Percent of US public transit buses using alt fuels
2006 18%
2011 35%
2012 38%
2013 40%
2014 41%
2015 47%
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 15 May 2016, 16:19:55

I think long haul trucking would be better replaced by rail than CNG trucks. Replacing what fuel they burn does not address the issue of trucks tearing up our roadways. With less trucks on the roadways they would need less maintenance. And rail is more fuel efficient and has less emissions as well. The right tool for the right job.

Trucks can wreak havoc on our environment. According to the EPA, their greenhouse gas emissions are five times as much as other modes of freight transport. And freight trucks cause more and more damage to our roadways every year. Long-haul trains are three times more fuel efficient than trucks.
Which is more efficient for freight: Truck or train?
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 15 May 2016, 16:52:43

As for short haul delivery vehicles, I think EV/hybrid is a good choice here. Short defined routes, lots of stop and go, centralized distribution location,
these are perfect qualities for EV/hybrid. Range anxiety is less of and issue. While regenerative braking from those frequent stops reduces wear and tear on the brakes while also recharging the batteries.

Our recent review of electrification options for trucks shows that urban delivery vehicles, like those Fedex and UPS trucks delivering your holiday packages, have the potential further reduce their emissions and oil consumption with the use of hybrid and battery electric technologies. Urban delivery trucks travel short, defined routes with lots of stop-and-go operation and are often parked at a central location when not in use. These attributes make them good candidates for hybridization as well as full electrification.

With well established routes, delivery fleets know precisely how far a vehicle needs to travel during a shift and how long the vehicle is parked between shifts. A full battery electric truck with sufficient range and recharge time then becomes an option for fleets to consider. Hybrid delivery trucks can reduce gasoline or diesel consumption 25 to 35 percent , while fully electric trucks can eliminate it.

Stop-and-go driving provides more opportunities to capture some of the energy usually lost when stopping a vehicle. Both hybrids and full electric vehicles can store this energy in on-board batteries for later use, a technology known as regenerative braking. This also helps reduce wear on the trucks brakes, resulting in savings on brake replacement costs.

Hybrid heavy-duty trucks
Hybrid-electric powertrains are the most mature electric-drive truck technology presently on the road. Several truck manufacturers are now offering hybrid models, and thousands of hybrid systems are being used in applications ranging from public-transit and school buses to package- and beverage-delivery trucks.

Battery electric trucks
Fully electric trucks are a more recent available option and are seeing interest from delivery fleets and municipalities. The range of a present-day battery electric truck varies, depending on the load it carries and the capacity of its batteries, from about 50 to 100 miles per charge. Companies such as AT&T, Coca-Cola, Frito-Lay, and Staples have added electric delivery trucks to their fleets. Municipalities, including Chicago and New York City, are also taking an interest in electric trucks as well, seeing an opportunity to be leaders in adopting clean transportation technology, tackling urban air pollution, and creating local jobs.
Ship It Green: Electrification of Delivery Trucks
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 16 May 2016, 08:12:15

pstarr wrote:Yes Starving, brilliant technology dependent on a different infrastructure that will never be built.


Given my peccadillo for harping on infrastructure issues I don't totally discount the issue. That being said cities like Hamilton/Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Chicago and many others have already invested in the CNG infrastructure and already are buying the vehicles intended to be fueled by that infrastructure.

Kub pointed out just above that cities across the USA have transitioned from 18 percent to 47 percent in a single decade. The advantages of CNG in terms of lower maintenance costs by far compared to Diesel #2 fuel are far greater than most people recognize. As an example, the reason the oil in your lubricating system on a Diesel or Gasoline engine turns black are microscopic soot particles from incomplete fuel combustion. The bigger particles get stuck in the oil filter but the really small ones accumulate in the oil until its lubricating properties are compromised enough it needs to be changed.

I know some business owners with a natural gas fired generator adapted from a truck engine. Their generator automatically runs one hour a week as a safety measure to make sure everything stays internally lubricated and the starter battery is fully charged. During the big black out of 2003 it ran continually for a week with no breaks while their business served as a cooling center for people suffering heat stress as well as keeping the business in operation. The oil in that generator is a clean and lubricating today as it was when it was installed 20 years ago and IIRC it only gets changed every five years as a precaution, what comes out is as clean as the fresh oil going in.

Anecdotes aside you can ask the mechanics that work on any of those CNG trucks and buses cities are converting over to. The engines hardly wear at all and the oil is changed on a schedule not out of necessity, but as a precautionary action.

Maintenance issues aside the second biggest advantage of CNG for fleet vehicles is stable pricing. Gasoline and diesel fuel are extremely volatile changing not just day to day but often every few hours if geopolitical events are driving things. This makes budgeting and expanse planning as much guesswork as anything else. In 2011-2014 prices were within the high range for Diesel and budgets were adapted for that, then last summer they started falling sharply and are still relatively low compared to 2007-2014 levels, but they are on the way back up. For Hamilton, the story that came out a few days ago shows they opened their GNG fueling station in late 2014. In 2015 they saved considerably on Diesel fuel because even though prices were cut in half the mild winter also depressed CNG prices so it was still the cheaper alternative. Now that Diesel prices have resumed their rise the fuel price advantage is growing once again, and even more important the stability of the price is keeping the CNG users within their budget planning. For the waste removal company, municipal trucks and buses using CNG that is good news, for the ones still burning Diesel it is very bad news because budgets structured around $2/gallon Diesel are now facing $2.70/gallon Diesel.

Business and government budgets (where they actually have to focus on these things) have been busted many times by the volatility of fuel prices, to the point where most of them have a "rainy day fund" they use to compensate for higher than anticipated prices. The "rainy day fund" was originally created to deal with disaster like flooding from extreme rain events or damage from other weather events, not from fuel price volatility. Convert to a stable price fuel and you can use your rainy day fund for emergencies, as originally intended.

Really any stable price fuel will do, but this thread is about natural gas as vehicle fuel.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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