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Environmental Awareness

Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Smurfs1976 » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 08:16:01

I think there's a few factors at work here.

Environmentalism emerged simultaneously around the developed world circa 1970. Various "trigger" issues prompted it, everything from dams to toxic waste, but I do find it interesting that it came into being about the same time in most places. This was before the internet and at a time when international travel was far less common for ordinary people than it is today. So less communication but people still started to focus on the environment about the same time.

I think it's no coincidence that this happened just as the West was at its peak economically. If people have money, jobs are plentiful and secure, then they start worrying about things other than the economy.

I suspect we've had what will in hindsight be seen as another major shift in 2008 with the financial crisis. Joe Public is getting poorer, they just haven't really figured out yet what's happened and that it's not a temporary blip. But nonetheless, they're getting poorer and their attention is shifting to economics over the environment. Note that it was in 2008 when the lines on that survey chart linked in another post crossed from environment to economy as the more important theme.

A basic pattern of Western industrialisation, protectionism and the dominance of the US and its' allies with currency ties to gold ran from about 1934 when the Great Depression "make work" schemes got underway to 1971 when it peaked. After that we've had neo-liberal economics and environmentalism which in hindsight I think will be seen to have largely run their course from 1971 to 2008. Both lasted 37 years or about half a human lifetime.

Certainly in my local area, I do perceive that both neo-liberal economics and environmentalism are in decline. Politicians to the Right aren't so keen on the free market as a solution to everything as they once were, they're a little more tolerant of concepts such as public service and state-run enterprises these days, and it's quite some time since we saw a major environmental protest rally take to the city streets.

The world changed in 2008, pretty clearly the "free market" approach slowly but surely pursued since the early 1970's and which became most apparent in the 1980's isn't as perfect as many had thought, and the next crisis whenever it comes will reinforce that. We're now headed in a different direction, it's just not yet clear to most what that direction actually is (just as it wasn't clear in early 1979 what path we were on at that time, it took a few more years for it to become readily apparent to most).

A key point there is that, locally at least, environmentalists were the first to recognise that shift. They proclaimed that manufacturing was dead and the future was in service industries as far back as the 1970's with most thinking they were crazy at the time. But as the factories closed one by one and tourism boomed, it became painfully apparent that they had been right all along.

They didn't cause it, they just worked it out at a time when everyone else was expecting the future to be a continuation of the past. Locally at least, part of the environmentalists' argument always was that whilst their reason for opposition was environmental, it was pointless to build industrial infrastructure (most notably power supply in the local context) if we weren't going to still have factories in business to use it.

Environmentalism is heavily tied up in all of this economic stuff I think. Firstly because it's not too hard to stop something like toxic waste dumping if the factory doing it is closing down anyway. Secondly because it relies on people having wealth to the point that they aren't focused on economics. It gets much harder to pursue such issues if everyone's struggling financially and willing to accept pretty much any form of development in the hope that it puts someone in a job.

The US just had a boom in shale as everyone on this site is no doubt well aware. I'm not overly familiar with US politics, only ever been in the country as a tourist and did the mainstream tourist stuff, but I do think it would likely have been a lot harder for that to occur 20 years ago when "environment" held more sway politically than "economy".

Just my thoughts as someone who sees the environment and economy question as heavily intertwined.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby ozcad » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 09:45:49

Smurfs1976
I think there's a few factors at work here....

Agreed. The power status of green politics does seems to be reducing.
Emails I get from 350.org now seem to be reporting how much fun I missed out on during the latest outing (demonstration), and they have got the pictures of face-painted kiddies to prove it.
Soon to come, a sure sign of desperation and an acknowledgement of powerlessness, offers of free steak knives.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Pops » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 11:04:15

Newfie wrote:Ironically more folks now believe that global warming has already kicked in, but are less concerned by it.

You sound surprised.

How many comments on this one site over the last 10 years have proclaimed
The End Is Past!
?
Real Peak Oil was 42 years 7 months and 12 13 days ago!
People Are Boiling In Their Skins This Second!

?

Half the time reading the battle to be the Biggest Doomer here I wonder if I've not already died off and am posting from Limbo via a Really Wide Area Network.

Then I realise, nope, it's just a game

.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 11:14:12

Smurf,

I think you raise some interesting new perspectives. Thanks.

Ozcad,

I never much participated in the anti-war protests of the 70's. because to me they seemed (for most) to be just a good excuse to party, smoke dope, and get laid. Not that I'm opposed to any of that, I just don't like doing it in crowds.

My Wife used to occassionally drag me to some pro nvironmental meeting, 350 and others. I even got to talk to Bill McKibben at a "members only" cocktail party. A lot of what I hear at these rallies is the we can't tell the people the truth, the truth does not sell, if we want to change this we need to sell positive outcomes; a better world, more jobs, economic growth.

Not always, but too often when I talk to organizers I find they don't really get the issues, they are poly S I guys looking for some organization so they can do their political activism stick. Not always, too often.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Lore » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 11:15:25

It's happening right now, all around where you're sitting Pops. Your refusal to acknowledge the impact, or dangers doesn't make it less so.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Pops » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 11:44:46

Yeah, we're dropping like flies out here. LOL


You make my point, Lore.

This is a desert. Drought is normal here. It's why we have big reservoirs.
Irrigation based ag didn't fold as predicted in the 1,000 Year Drought.
No starvation yet... dang it.
Even the scourge of increased body odor from quicker showers hasn't deteriorated society to any great extent.
The worst effect so far is the increase in water rates because we conserved so much.

Yet the drumbeat of wish-doom continues.

Kinda explains why people think the environment must be getting better doesn't it?

After all we didn't all die-off as predicted.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 13:05:36

Typical stream of unsupported claims.

Yes, there is a long history of drought in CA. And certainly, many have been much longer.

But none have been as deep, not in over 1000 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/scien ... .html?_r=0

And please show us where anyone here ever said that everyone in CA would be dead by now...
Last edited by dohboi on Sun 24 Jan 2016, 13:26:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 13:26:21

pstarr wrote:New York Times income is derived from product advertising telling/suggesting/imploring and DEMANDING that readers BUY STUFF. It is well-known that advertising controls editorial decisions. To believe otherwise is incredibly naive.


News flash: people like to buy stuff. It's not necessary to encourage that they do so. To believe otherwise is to be incredibly naive. I can see plenty of bias in, let's say the WSJ, anti AGW articles and the like. I do not see that same kind of bias in the NYT. Your article kind of reminds me of Cid's "the MSM doesn't cover doom" screed, which I skewered with plenty of links. So stop making these broad sweeping generalizations.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Lore » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 13:29:47

The point I'm making is that it's happening now. What's unusual about CA is that they're nearly 40 million people there trying to live in a desert environment that will only get dryer as the years go on.

I would look at it Pops like your diabetes. Certainly there were warning signs long before you became insulin dependent. Had you heeded them you may have been in better shape today. And like such a disease climate change is sneaking up on us all everyday. Everything is just fine until, wham, it all of sudden isn't anymore. Then what, panic? Run in circles scream and shout?

My Spanish grandma would always chide us saying; "mañana". Meaning, you're putting off to tomorrow what must be done today.

What concerns me is not you, but the lessons you're leaving behind you. Your unprepared prodigy is very likely to affect mine.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Lore » Sun 24 Jan 2016, 13:39:22

pstarr wrote:Pops doesn't always mean what he says. Sometimes he just enjoys pushing people buttons. Other times Pops likes to stimulate debate and maximize the 'hit' metric on this web site analytic. That's because PO.com is powned by General Electric (Pops is a secret operative) and GE makes money each time someone reads this ridiculous post. It comes from advertising, like ennui says.


Except this thread only receives hits from the members. It's not public.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 21:41:59

Pops has a point, folks only look short term, so if they ain't thirsty they aren't worrying.

But I think that is part of the problem with decreasing awareness with environmental awareness. People now seem to think of it's too cold you turn up the heat or to hot you turn on the AC. They seem to have lost the causal connection to the environment. Which makes sense since we Americans spend something like 95% of our time in controlled environments.

They have lost the connection that says "look around and see what your natural resources are." They don't care. They are isolated in their human controlled cocoon.

It was not always so. It will be that way again. It just is not now.

From reading Dana I get the impression the historic population of California was quite low, well under 100,000. That has been increased by the resiviours and pipelines, but also through the massive use of fossil water. It is clear that those fossil water fields are running out. I believe The fossil water was used to buffer the ups and downs of the snow pack. Eventually that nuffering capacity will be lost, and the ground water can not be replenished due to changes in the sand structure.

It hasn't happened yet, it will. Soon enough.

In the meantime I see no reason to gloat over the rampant stupidity that
is so evident. California has been lucky, so far.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Sat 06 Feb 2016, 11:40:42

A trophy hunters association is auctioning off the rights to hunt mega-fauna animals. If things we're bad enough, the bush meat trade, human encroachment, and climate change, now hunting will be resumed.

https://www.facebook.com/RYOT/videos/1263886396958322/

It's been said that within 20 years all the mega-fauna animals will only exist in books or in social myth. Sad really.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 28 Mar 2016, 09:15:13

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?res ... kcGJORBdNU
Neat Excel presentation showing in graph style the numbers related to Global footprints per capita and in total.
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 28 Mar 2016, 09:50:35

Rod_Cloutier wrote:A trophy hunters association is auctioning off the rights to hunt mega-fauna animals. If things we're bad enough, the bush meat trade, human encroachment, and climate change, now hunting will be resumed.

https://www.facebook.com/RYOT/videos/1263886396958322/

It's been said that within 20 years all the mega-fauna animals will only exist in books or in social myth. Sad really.


listen to this please

http://www.radiolab.org/story/rhino-hunter/

And then come back here and comment on what you heard. Thanks
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Re: Environmental Awareness

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 28 Mar 2016, 10:02:00

I will not preempt your analysis Rod, but Ibon showed us this video some time ago. It is about preserving a wildlife refugee for these animals precisely because hunters donate money for the right to hunt them. If not for this practice, perhaps these marvelous animals would already be extinct. The morale of this story is how ever you give value to wildlife, giving it true value may be a way to preserve it for posterity.
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