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Squanderland vs Thriftville

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Unread postby holmes » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 13:55:26

Leanan wrote:Much as I hate to admit it...terrorism works. Not quickly, but terrorists don't expect overnight results. They think in terms of years. Decades, even.

Suicide bombing was invented in Lebanon, I believe. While it was being occupied by U.S. and Israeli forces. A truck bomb attack on our embassy wiped out the entire Middle East department of the CIA. 240 Marines were killed in a suicide truck bombing of their barracks. We pulled out a few months later.

Israel stayed. For 18 years, they stayed in Lebanon. It became their Vietnam. Finally, they gave up and pulled out. Now Hezbollah shoots missiles into Israel from Lebanon.

If anyone is tough on terrorism, it's Israel. They are paranoid about national security (for good reason.) They have a draft, of both men and women, so have plenty of manpower. Lebanon is right next door, certainly a more serious threat to them than Iraq is to the U.S. or Europe. But they gave up.

I think the same thing will happen in Iraq. It may take months, it may takes years, it may take decades, but eventually, we will be driven out. The bottom line is we have somewhere else to go, and they don't.


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Unread postby EdF » Thu 14 Jul 2005, 16:52:49

A maybe relevant article: "It's the Occupation, Stupid!"

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Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 03:52:14

How about some discussion on my other point?

Montequest wrote:As the reality of oil depletion goes mainstream, the direct use of available oil resources for energy consumption may well take precedence over their indirect use to produce another form of energy, whether it be wind or nano-technology, especially if the ROI is a distant reality.


Will alternatives be competing for current demand for the energy to build them?
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Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 04:09:59

Leanan I think you have it dead right, it's the occupation. Zero Iraqui suicide bombers until we invaded and stayed. No Irani ones until we invade there.

The insurgents would do more to damage our economy by attacking our oil production abilities, but you are right, that's not what they care about, they just want us the hell out of their country.

In fact, I wonder if the British "occupation" of the US got bad enough that there were any US fighters roughly analogous to a suicide bomber? Did we have any type of suicide fighters, "one way mission" types? I know the feelings against the British got pretty strong.
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Unread postby Raxozanne » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 04:16:43

MonteQuest wrote:Will alternatives be competing for current demand for the energy to build them?


I believe so unless the government gets really organised and steps in to give precedence to green technology but then that wouldn't go down well as it would reduce the immediate amount of oil for consumption in other areas.
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Unread postby Roy » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 09:35:30

In fact, I wonder if the British "occupation" of the US got bad enough that there were any US fighters roughly analogous to a suicide bomber? Did we have any type of suicide fighters, "one way mission" types? I know the feelings against the British got pretty strong.


I'm not sure about that, but there are plenty of examples throughout American military history where individuals have sacrificed themselves for their comrades in arms. I've read plenty of WWII history and examples of a man throwing himself on a grenade, knowing full well he would die, to save his buddies. Is this the same thing?
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There are also examples of individuals who charged the machine gun nest so that their comrades could advance. The large majority of Congressional Medal of Honor were issued posthumously. And I know from my study of military history that what beat the British here in the 1770-1780's was our use of guerilla tactics. Usually when the Colonial army faced the British on the field of battle, the results weren't good for the colonists.

However, it was the guerilla tactics that caused casualties to the British that made the war unpopular back home. It became un-profitable for them to continue the war. They were after all, a mercantile society. They realized that no amount of convential army formations could defeat the insurgency as long as the general populace (or at least a significant portion of them) supported the rebels. I wonder if the military strategy experts in the Pentagon ever studied the military history of their own country. Surely they have, yet they have the arrogance to believe that the fundamental truth of that time is different from the reality now. I say it isn't. Look at Vietnam and Iraq. Same idea.

Also, despite Washington's calling the insurgents "barbarians" or somesuch for killing the pro-american Iraqis, they seem to overlook what happened to the loyalists in this country once the rebellion gathered steam.

Lynchings and burning homes was quite common, based on my admittedly limited study of the Revolutionary War. The conservatives of that time were the ones (like today) that were against change because it affected their bottom line. The liberals of that time were, IMO, the founding fathers who had the vision to see the need for change.

Men in general, when faced with what they believe is certain death, will sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the tribe, society, family, whatever you want to call it. That is not an uniquely Muslim trait.

Suicide missions can be seen throughout our history. Doolittle's raid on Tokyo jumps out in my tired brain right now.
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Unread postby retiredguy » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 10:33:44

I disagree with those of who don't think the terrorist attacks, particularly those in the West, aren't effective. What they do is point out the fact to the man-in-the-street, that his government is essentially powerless to protect him from a determined terrorist.

In the US, right after the London attacks, ABC news showed how easy it was to leave a package unattended on a train. Most of us understand this vulnernalibity, but these attacks force it into the foreground, pointing out all hopeless it is to expect Homeland Security to protect us. Stage enough of these attacks, and the general public will start asking why they are happening in the first place.

A secondary result of these attacks is that it breeds hostility between Muslims and and non-Muslims. The terrorists want to foment this hostility; it creates more radicals, on both sides. Did you see how many racist incidents followed the London attacks?

Now, back to Monte's second question. To my way of thinking, when oil is in short supply, the mass sentiment will be to get more oil to use directly, not to divert to develop alternatives. I find it difficult to believe that the majority of people in this country will choose privation for non-guaranteed results (investment in alternatives) while there is still a possibility of securing more oil. The current energy bill states it rather plainly: its all about securing more fossil fuels.

Where is the revolution to change this way of thinking? I don't see the Democrats pushing an eco-economy platform. Perhaps the Greens, but how many seats do they have in Congress?
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Unread postby retiredguy » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 11:03:37

Please pardon a digretion, but I have to voice something that has been bothering me while reviewing a number of threads this week.

During my working life, I was a software engineer. The last IT organization I worked for was very large and we had a group of folks whose job title was "IT architect." It was their job to review infrastructure acquititon/creation decisions to make sure that these decisions didn't negatively impact their "vision" as to what our IT infrastructure should be.

All well and good, but their "vision" oftimes didn't mesh with reality. We had real problems to solve and they would tell us what infrastructure to buy/build (in general terms) to solve the problems. Many times this infrastructure couldn't be bought (didn't exist) or was far too expensive for the organization to build. When we told them that bad news, their response was: "That is what SHOULD be done. That it can't be done isn't our problem; our job is to tell you how things SHOULD be." Naturally, our response was to cobble together what we could to address the problems at hand.

My unpleasant memories of that time are revived when I see posters saying things like "Just get rid of private cars" or builld solar mirrors. Yes indeed, this may solve the problem, but how do we effect these solutions? Who is going to introduce legislation to tax the hell out of private autos? Who is going to introduce legislation to fund additional NASA projects costing countless billions when Congress can't even decide how to deal with known crises like Medicare/Medicaide/Social Security?

Sorry for the rant, but I grow weary of the endless semantic discussions we've been having as of late. I believe we are headed for a collapse and noone has yet come close to providing evidence to the contrary.

Given that the pension and the other investments that provide me retirement income and given my age, I probably have more to lose than most of you if the current economic system starts tanking. My interests would be best served by a soft-landing, so please tell me how that is going to happen.
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Unread postby holmes » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 12:29:41

That is the question Im always thinking about and questioning the utopians. Of course to build these alternatives it will take probably the same amount of energy to build the infrastructure as it did to build the current infrastructure. Im not really strong on this topic but just by reading and observing where are we going to get all this energy? ANWR? Nope. Maybe invade and cpture the last remaining oil fields. But then wont we bee using the energy we need to build that is already getting scarce? We have to build an entire "new" civilization infrastructure. And now that the easy stuff is on the decline, what? Fusion? Hydrogen? No way those take huge amounts of the enrgy we need to build. So there is really no way to keep stus quo. So are the popualtions going to begin living like me for the amount of years to build? Beans, rice, picking, growing, not going to supermarkets, biking, walking, drop the big jobs, cut consumption, needs not wants, love of wilderness/ecology, etcc.. =If you think the US will just ease off the NEEDLE for a minute, stop immigration, exponential growth, LOL. Your delirious. :-D
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Unread postby holmes » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 12:42:18

Utopians need to explain these roswell type energy sources thata re going to keep the high level of calories flowing through the bodies of the industrilized nations. Oil has given us the calories neede to overshoot by 500% ya know. Hydrogen? This needs geothermal vents to be viable. Fusion? we are not star wars here we have gravity and ecological limits. remember we are on earth here. not beta centura. I want to know what can be mass produced and used to keep her going and growing. Bio fuels? good for sustainable logarithmically growing pops. Nuclear? good on a small scale as a filler. all take big enrgy to produce in an exponentially based society. but man if we got a save all great.
combination of all? this will require a large proportion of the energy needed to run the show in the production of the energy. well maybe well jsut produce energy to produce energy. this is insane!
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Unread postby Ludi » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 13:46:23

retiredguy wrote:Please pardon a digretion, but I have to voice something that has been bothering me while reviewing a number of threads this week....

My unpleasant memories of that time are revived when I see posters saying things like "Just get rid of private cars" or builld solar mirrors. Yes indeed, this may solve the problem, but how do we effect these solutions? Who is going to introduce legislation to tax the hell out of private autos? Who is going to introduce legislation to fund additional NASA projects costing countless billions when Congress can't even decide how to deal with known crises like Medicare/Medicaide/Social Security?

Sorry for the rant, but I grow weary of the endless semantic discussions we've been having as of late. I believe we are headed for a collapse and noone has yet come close to providing evidence to the contrary.

Given that the pension and the other investments that provide me retirement income and given my age, I probably have more to lose than most of you if the current economic system starts tanking. My interests would be best served by a soft-landing, so please tell me how that is going to happen.


Thank you so much for clearly articulating my main problem with the soft landing/no-collapse POV.

I wish more of those espousing the no-collapse view would more clearly present their ideas why there will probably not be a collapse, versus what seems evident to so many of us, that there probably will be a collapse.

I couldn't even see evidence of the probability of the no-collapse scenario in the Probably No Collapse thread. Maybe the information is there and I'm just not understanding it....
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Unread postby holmes » Fri 15 Jul 2005, 13:55:57

Ludi wrote:
retiredguy wrote:Please pardon a digretion, but I have to voice something that has been bothering me while reviewing a number of threads this week....

My unpleasant memories of that time are revived when I see posters saying things like "Just get rid of private cars" or builld solar mirrors. Yes indeed, this may solve the problem, but how do we effect these solutions? Who is going to introduce legislation to tax the hell out of private autos? Who is going to introduce legislation to fund additional NASA projects costing countless billions when Congress can't even decide how to deal with known crises like Medicare/Medicaide/Social Security?

Sorry for the rant, but I grow weary of the endless semantic discussions we've been having as of late. I believe we are headed for a collapse and noone has yet come close to providing evidence to the contrary.

Given that the pension and the other investments that provide me retirement income and given my age, I probably have more to lose than most of you if the current economic system starts tanking. My interests would be best served by a soft-landing, so please tell me how that is going to happen.


Thank you so much for clearly articulating my main problem with the soft landing/no-collapse POV.

I wish more of those espousing the no-collapse view would more clearly present their ideas why there will probably not be a collapse, versus what seems evident to so many of us, that there probably will be a collapse.

I couldn't even see evidence of the probability of the no-collapse scenario in the Probably No Collapse thread. Maybe the information is there and I'm just not understanding it....


hey retired guy. Believe me I work for and have worked for the goverment and military service. Nothing is being done. In the office we are all just like waiting for the train wreck. we are all in planning and all have ecological awareness and backgrounds. some "progressive" (PC play of words, sorrry) offices like mine are just beside themselves. Cuz the "liberals" and conservatives are just battling over the last pieces of the pie. the one side "feels" they can save the junkies and welfare brats. the other side wants to pave every last fertile crescent with their capitalistic insanity and depends on the growth of the sub 90 iQs to feed the corporations and buy shit. The cliff awaits and its in view. if you have good 20/20 or below. o and forget retirement. Its been sucked up. Ever wonder how all these bloated bellies were formed and on what resources?
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Re: Squanderland vs Thriftville

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 10 Feb 2016, 09:48:28

MonteQuest wrote:This is from a blog of mine that I didn't post here yet. Thought it might stimulate some discussion. Edited for current events.

Squanderland vs Thriftville

In the post-peak world, I see too distinct camps of thought: Those who want to consume as before, and those who wish to find stability. The first group will be the capitalist/economist type, forever-looking for new ways to exploit the environment based upon the economic mindset of supply/demand. They are always quick to adopt solutions that are brilliantly successful and perhaps understandable in the short run, but that fail or else create fatal problems in the long run, i.e., the current plethora of ills.

The second group will consist of those who realized that it was the mindset of the first group who got them to post-peak, although they had little choice as to whether or not to participate, and most did not know it was a path that led down a dark one-way alley.

You can solve most problems with enough money, energy, raw materials, and time, but you cannot solve an energy crisis by using more energy, more materials, and less time. This is what the cornucopians believe.

Energy is a unique commodity. It takes energy to do anything. And since you can’t create it, or destroy it, you had better make good use of it when you transform it from one form to another, as you are going to lose some of it in the process.

If we can have $60 a barrel of oil on the speculation of a shortage, imagine then what the price of a barrel might be when we do have real shortages. 8O Since we have done little to nil to prepare for the coming oil shocks, we are completely reliant on increasing our supply of oil to power all of our transport needs, our food production, our manufacturing of goods and 40% of our total energy needs.

I keep coming back to a question that appears to be tugging at more minds, and with more urgency, every day: What if the die has already been cast? Suppose for a moment that we have passed the point of no return, and that some form of collapse is now already in the cards. Nothing new, you say. But I look at this in a way few have considered: As the reality of oil depletion goes mainstream, the direct use of available oil resources for energy consumption may well take precedence over their indirect use to produce another form of energy, whether it be wind or nano-technology, especially if the ROI is a distant reality. And, of course, a fascist government could ration what we can have, so they have enough to wage war to get more.

Or this: The Islamic fundamentalists are becoming savvy to the notion that if you want to hit America or the West, you go after the oil, which, of course, is right in their backyard. The market today cannot sustain any loss of production or supply. Some have likened this new terrorism to a “shadow OPEC.” The control of oil doesn't rest in the hands of the OPEC or the free market, but in the hands of the guerrillas who can stop the flow—and knock the needle out of the junkie’s hands.

Anybody ever seen a junkie in need of a fix?

Authors note: My title was inspired by an article by Warren Buffet, entitled, The Mercantilist’s Tale. Well worth googling.


Having grown up lower middle class and tried all my life to live frugally I can tell you the spouse you marry makes a huge difference. I had to divorce a big spender and marry a frugal woman to feel like I could make a sustainable life for myself.
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Re: Squanderland vs Thriftville

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 10 Feb 2016, 10:02:17

Subjectivist wrote:
Having grown up lower middle class and tried all my life to live frugally I can tell you the spouse you marry makes a huge difference. I had to divorce a big spender and marry a frugal woman to feel like I could make a sustainable life for myself.


These personality types will remain through the energy decline. What changes are the symbols. Colored beads and shells at one time in our distant past were coveted by those that were big spenders. Adorning your body with tatoos and scars from head to toe expressing your vanity.

Cultural adaptation and energy decline will simply shift the symbols we choose for status and affluence.

The consequences of human overshoot will force the objects of affluence to be less energy intensive but will not remove the underlying personality types that will crave this.

Maybe necklaces of human teeth and earings of human toe bones, queens will be adorned with crowns of human vertebrae, energy drinks will be human bones ground down to fine powder and mixed with corn meal. Human leather will be fashioned into designer purses and be all the rage.
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Re: Squanderland vs Thriftville

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 10 Feb 2016, 15:35:28

Ibon wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:
Having grown up lower middle class and tried all my life to live frugally I can tell you the spouse you marry makes a huge difference. I had to divorce a big spender and marry a frugal woman to feel like I could make a sustainable life for myself.


These personality types will remain through the energy decline. What changes are the symbols. Colored beads and shells at one time in our distant past were coveted by those that were big spenders. Adorning your body with tatoos and scars from head to toe expressing your vanity.

Cultural adaptation and energy decline will simply shift the symbols we choose for status and affluence.

The consequences of human overshoot will force the objects of affluence to be less energy intensive but will not remove the underlying personality types that will crave this.

Maybe necklaces of human teeth and earings of human toe bones, queens will be adorned with crowns of human vertebrae, energy drinks will be human bones ground down to fine powder and mixed with corn meal. Human leather will be fashioned into designer purses and be all the rage.


I remember tales about the Nazi's making human skin leather. The most prized were the ones with tattoo's demonstrating what they were made of without having to outright specify the source material.

Teeth or finger/toe bones could come from non fatal sources, like the old mafia stories about every underling having to give their right pinky finger as proof of loyalty and commitment to the 'family'. Vertebra on the other hand like leather would require donor death, voluntary or otherwise.
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